SPEAKER_00 0:32

Welcome to the Pink and Green Podcast, where we explore the rise of Vermont soccer through the lens of community, culture, and the game itself, featuring stories from Vermont Clover FC. Join us as we talk with players, coaches, and the people shaping the future of the game in Vermont. Well, welcome to the Pink and Green Podcast. I'm AJ.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

And I'm Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

How you doing, Chris?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I'm doing fantastic. I am in my office on campus, which is rare. I know you were gonna ask, so I kind of pre prior preempted you on that one. So you can see some of the scarves in my scarf collection.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yeah, there's a couple, there's a couple that like I got other random places, but almost all these represent a team that I saw play in a game in like in person.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Awesome. Oh that's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

So they each have their own little story, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Uh my I'm taking my family to a revolution game uh later this month. We're gonna see them play uh New York City FC. So I'm pretty excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

The last time I saw Revs play, they played against NYC FC, and it was like the game was okay, but they did they did dis they did disable Tucker at halftime, and I was blown away by how good they are. Oh yeah. And I don't mean like good for people on crutches, because most of them are like they like they have like assisted walking stuff. I don't mean good for I mean like legitimately like good and could show up at your local pickup game and embarrass you good. Like these guys are really good players.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So I I think I just saw that on the on the Instagram. They posted their their like um uh what was it called? It wasn't just like um paraplegics or whatever, they were like missing limbs, like some guys were playing on crutches and stuff. I was like, whoa.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah, that was the group that I saw, and I think they might have played, I think they played 7v7, or maybe like 8v8 and a goalkeeper. It was it was I was blown away. Like I didn't get up for halftime. My whole family went, and I was like, I'm gonna watch a second of this before I go. My whole family went to go like get snacks or whatever, and I was just like standing and like riveting at the quality of play. I mean, it was better than the actual game, honestly. That's awesome. Guys were so good. That's great. Yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Awesome. Well, I am very excited to welcome our guest to the show today. Today's guest has willingly chosen to be uh one of the few jobs in soccer where no matter what you do, how well you do it, somebody is gonna have a problem and go home mad at you. Uh Corey Snaate, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Hey, thanks for having me, guys.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Corey, you are uh a referee. You've done many a game, be it Clover or other Vermont games, um, and you are currently, if I get this right, you're the director of assignments for the Vermont Soccer Association.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Yep, uh yeah, so it's the um for the uh for youth and adult. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Okay. Uh let's let's start, you know, where it all began. How did you get into soccer and when did you know that uh, as I like to say, or quote, football is life?

SPEAKER_04 3:50

Yeah, no, I uh um you know playing up in the the youth clubs and um down southern Vermont. Um went on to play at Plymouth State, New Hampshire uh for four years and um just out of college uh started coaching, like kind of as every kind of pathway of a college soccer player who goes and started coaching uh high school. Um and uh did that for probably 10 years. And um I I don't know, I I I don't know when the transition, I I don't know when I made the transition from being a coach to a referee. Um but uh yeah, um started refereeing about 10 years ago now. Um and uh haven't looked back since. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

That's great. Um where were where were you coaching?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Down in Springfield, Springfield High School. Oh, awesome. Okay, cool. So before you move back to Burling, before you moved to Burlington?

SPEAKER_04 4:57

Yep, I coached uh four years. I did like two years with a boys' program, two years with a girls program. What we won a state championship uh as assistant coach with Paul Kendall down there uh 2010.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Paul Paul would be an interesting person to have on this too because he's been around for a long time and was kind of like the center of the soccer universe.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

And he played at Bonaventure, I think. He played at Bonaventure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

He did. Paul was to fill AJ in on this. Paul was a long time coach at Springfield, long, long time, 20 plus years. Oh wow, he may have even been the first coach at the program. Good coach. I we knew him. Well, Corey knew him from other places, but I knew him from uh ODP because he coached in the ODP and his kids played, I think right before we were coaching at ODP together. And we used to, so this is old school soccer people, Ed DeMulder, I who I coached with at Rice, we always used to scrimmage Springfield because he and Paul were buddies because Paul was he he might have like organized the ODP coaches or something like that, but he had some sort of administrative role with ODP. So he and Ed worked pretty closely together when Ed was president of VSA. Yeah, so we always used to go to Springfield. Did you play at Springfield too? Yeah, uh, did he did he? No, did you?

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Oh yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah, how's that coming home to like coach after because you must have known some of those kids like from being around?

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Yep, yeah. So it's it's a weird dynamic. I mean, you're you're 21, 22 years old, and you're you know, refing the you know, 17, 18-year-old kids, and it's you know, it you have to have the right group of people so that it's not like you know, oh Corey's one of the guys, you know. Um so yeah, it it it can be tough. It could be tough, you know, being that young and coaching young kids, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

What is I interrupted your last question, AJ, because I needed to know about Springfield.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

No, I'll all good, all good. I I I was just curious, like um what what does it take to be a referee? And when when I say that, I mean they don't just let anybody take a whistle and go out there, right? Like if you want to be referee, I assume there's like a process, some sort of like certification or something you have to go through to do that.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

Yep, yeah. So um uh starting in, I think it's like October, November, um, the state referee committee, we have um uh a group of I think eight to ten of us that are all volunteers. Um, and you have uh the state director of instruction, the state um administrator. Um and uh yeah, we put on clinics throughout the winter and folks from I think it's um like 13 uh and up, 12 and up, 13 and up can become referee. You go uh you take the test online and then you go to an in-person clinic. Um, and we kind of go through the different scenarios and um things to watch out for as a referee.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

In in preparing for your episode, I found that there is a book called The Laws of the Game, and it goes through the 17 laws uh of the you know corner kicks and and everything else. Uh so I I bookmarked that for reading later. I thought that's that was gonna be really cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, you can get on your phone too. It's okay, it's a pretty dry read. Sure. It's a pretty dry read. Yeah, the iFab, the stuff they're putting out there is compelling, but it's not necessarily compelling reading. The thing that's more interesting than the laws themselves is the interpretation, is the law interpretations, which are constantly evolving, right? So the law, the laws about what a foul is have not actually changed substantially at all in the last hundred years since they codified that thing. But how but the interpretations of like the laws about what a foul is have changed very substantially. Like since I played in the 90s, it used to the interpretation used to be if you get ball, it's not a foul. And we all know that this is not the because so guys would be like going through the backs of each other, sliding like crazy, studs up, whatever, and it was just the way that it was. And the game has evolved in such a way that if you also impede this person's progress while getting the ball, it's it's gonna be a foul. So like the interpretation and that and they change over time. The offside law is exactly the same as it's always been, but the interpretation between this is the finer points for the nerds out there, it used to be that even was off. So if you're even with the if the attacking player was even with the defending player, you are offside, and then that changed to even is now on, which is why you see those graphics of like you know, like a hair or a sliver like out in front. So the law itself hasn't changed, but how they interpret the law and how that the law is administered as change, which is part of like the really cool referee crafty part of refereeing, is try to stay abreast with all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

You know, the handball, I think that's changed every year for the last like 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah, so how do you keep up?

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do I keep up?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah, or or referees keep up. And and the other and a challenge for management is like, you know, like you make a call, and every coach is the most expert referee that's ever not refereed, right? Like as a coach myself. So how do you keep up and like how do you deal with like, okay, this is the rule now?

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's uh, you know, we uh some of some of the refs like to get together and you know, we'll you know, have a have a beer or two and you know, talk about you know upcoming law changes and things that we're looking forward to, and um, but uh it's uh it's it's wild. Um there's there's a uh YouTube um page uh referee pro and they go over all of um the the calls, the big calls that have been made in the previous week. Uh so if anybody wants to really geek out and and listen to some referee uh combos, it's really great. Great stuff. I love it. I watch every week and you can even go online and look into the more detailed uh aspects of why calls were made or not called and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

So yeah. Do you think uh what's the difference? I guess this is a question between the let's say the highest levels that you work with regularly, right? What are the differences between like being successful kind of like at the and the levels you're working at are like let's say semi-pro or like high-level college? What are some of the differences between someone who's gonna be successful at that level and someone who's not gonna be successful at that level?

SPEAKER_04 11:28

Yeah, I think the number one thing is keeping a calm head, uh, not letting your feathers get ruffled. If um, if that happens, the the players know you know, they can see the blood in the water and uh they'll they'll take advantage of that and um the games can get really out of control. So the you you see those top-tier referees that are doing the the the green games and um you know up into the high-level college games, even in the clover games, we have high-level refs doing those games. Um, you can see the the high quality referees have a the ability to really keep a calm head. They're not reacting, they're not elevating the temperature of the game. Um, so that's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Got a two-part question for you. What what made you want a referee? And when you made that jump, what was the thing that surprised you most? Like you you were a player, you were a coach, and now you're you're participating in the game in a completely different point of view. You know, was there something where you're like, oh yeah, I got this? And then you get in there and you're like, oh wow, this is you know surprising.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

Yeah. Um, I think I think it was, you know, coaching, you know, high school and and uh coached at uh Far Post for a little bit, coached at Essex United, Nordic. Um uh and uh I think it was like just seeing some games go without referees, some games going with you know, two referees or one referee. Um just it felt like a disservice to the kids and to the game. Um, and I it it didn't sit well with me. I'm like, I you know what, I'm gonna be trying to be part of the solution and I'm gonna get out there and I'm a ref referee. Um and uh for anybody that played with me in in high school and college, like I was one of the loudest ones on the field. I was a center back, and uh my buddies have kind of a running joke, and like the whenever we talk about the old days that they'd be like, oh, you know, referee, and like screaming at the referee. And so I, you know, I was I was friendly with the referees, like we're we got along well, but you know, if a referee made a bad call, I'd let him know. But uh thankfully they didn't get carded for it. But um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Nice. Um, speaking of carding, you you know, you're out there on the field and there's plenty of times where um you know something happens and you could raise the car, but like what's for for those times where it's like eh, like what what has to happen for you to be like, oh yeah, this is definitely definitely like a yellow card.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Yeah, I mean it's taking a deep breath, uh, you know, as you make that call. And um it's a it's a an instinct that you you feel it, it you feel like it's a yellow card for for a lot of them. Um you know, there are some that you know could be a yellow or could be a stern warning, um, you know, and letting everybody know that, hey, this is the last time you were doing this, we're not doing it anymore. You know, or hey, one, two, three, that was the third one, no more. That kind of stuff um can help help you, you know, go from either a you know, a stern warning to a to a yellow card or to a red card.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

So um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

One of the things that people who are maybe casual observers of the game don't realize how much influence on the game the referee really has, and not just by the calls that they make, but the calls that they don't make. And players are very adaptive to like what the what the what the conditions are on the field, right? They play certain ways on the rain, they play certain ways when it's hot. They also play certain ways based on you know the referee, like because every day with every referee, a the same call is not exactly the same call all the time. And referees often have things that are maybe 50-50 in a certain game, you're like, Yeah, it's probably not a foul. And then in other games, you're like, okay, if the temperature is starting to go up, so we're gonna tighten up here a little bit. And the stuff that maybe wasn't a foul is like now gonna be a foul, just to kind of send a message of like this is the kind of way that the game needs to go. And players are very good at adapting to that, which it is always funny when there's like the one kid who doesn't get it or the one player doesn't get it. It's like, no, actually, he's trying to like cool everything down here, like you're the one guy, like you're the yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

You try to find those uh players, you know, when you're refing, you try to find those players that um you can have a quick conversation with uh in the run of play or a you know a stoppage, you know. But hey, like number number five over here, like we gotta get him under control. And so you try to find those those small little moments throughout the game that yeah, you know, hey, he's doing what everyone else is not doing. Let's let's rein that in. And so usually you can um if you find the right player, sometimes it's the captain, sometimes it's hey, we need to chill calm your captain down. So you try to find those players in the game to um help with your game management. And sometimes it works, sometimes it backfires and and uh doesn't go as well as well as planned, but yeah, try to do it your best.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yeah, and that's another thing that people, the casual observer doesn't necessarily realize is like not only are there ongoing conversations between players from both teams and each other all the time, but there's ongoing conversations with the referees also. It is not a quiet game. Everybody's talking to each other the entire time. All you know, we think of the game as being 22 players, but it's really not. It's 22 players plus three referees, the the person in the center, and then the AR on the team side, AR1, and then the assistant referee on the other side, AR2. So it's really you know, it's not 22 people, it's 25.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

Yeah, which is yeah. And to that point, like, you know, we with with comms now, um, it it's made game management a little bit easier in a sense for referees. So like you have a call that you make in the far corner and you have the ref the one of the coach losing their mind, like, you know, what did this referee? This referee just referee just blew it, blew that call. You know, we can now communicate with that AR one, or we can communicate with our AR four or the fourth official, uh, and and then calm that calm that situation down. Whereas like before, like, you know, there would be no explanation to that coach, and then that just temperature just escalates.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

And uh Yeah, I think that the comms are an innovation, a relatively recent innovation that have kind of really changed the game in a in a in an overwhelmingly positive way, because there's just less, there's a lot less yelling from you know, coach to the center referee, because especially if you're near the AR, you can have a conversation with them and say, Hey, can you relay this piece of information? And and maybe you're not even complaining, hey, this is a thing we're noticing. Can you relay this piece of information? And the AR does whatever he wants with that, but you can feel a little bit like you can feel a little bit heard in a way that you want to feel heard that you had to yell for just five years ago or 10 years ago, or got or or if there's people without the comp. So I think that and and having I think it's led also, again, from a coach's perspective, I think it's also led to like a higher degree of accuracy because you can slow it down and you can get a little help. Hey, this is what I think I saw. What did you see? And get help from two other people, and one of whom inevitably is gonna be like, I didn't see anything. Yeah, but the other one may be right, it might be right in front of them. And instead of just waving the flag to to help indicate a thing, there's an actual ongoing conversation with those people. I think it's been an incredible. I having refereed beforehand and after, what do you think? Would you say that's been revolutionary, or are there some other like recent changes that have really kind of changed the game?

SPEAKER_04 19:22

I um advocate using comms um at you know, even at the grassroots level, um, it just it uh like you said, it provides a in some degree a better level of accuracy in the calls that people are making or not making, um, you know calls that ARs may have made in the past of like, hey, I I saw a P I saw a pen, I say PK uh, you know, call and that center official has a different angle, they can relay, hey, no, this is what I got, we're good, keep your flag down. Um, so um, you know, you get the other side of it where um it can become a distraction for some referees, um you know, where they talk too much or or talk about stuff that's not relevant, uh, and then that just it's just finding that professional level of of communication in the in the comms uh to to elevate your game.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

But um I had a thought that was just draw about the comms.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

Um oh yeah, no, I I've done you know a few games where my comms I get to the game and my comms aren't working, like here we go. Old school, you could call it old school, but I mean that's what that's what 10 years ago. Um and it kind of heightens your senses a little bit when you're when you don't have that piece of uh um communication. And so now you're watching things a little bit more uh clearer vision. Um you're listening for things that are going on with the players maybe a little bit more. Um so I but I I love it. I love them.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

How do you feel about the ref camp? You watch the World Cup. How did you feel about the ref week camp?

SPEAKER_04 21:04

I I I it was we very low quality. Um and it was I don't know, they should have done it like they do in the Super Bowl, where they have like a separate channel just designated to the camera. Like that would be pretty cool. Um, I mean, I I would love, I've kind of joked before, but like it'd be cool to like have like you can like to tap into like the the the referees' communication and hear what they're saying, like um just because I love the the nerd side of refereeing and you know what what people are calling, what not calling, but um yeah, I I I think the the ref cam is a I think what they're trying to do is is give a lens like to the to the audience and kind of make it a little bit more appealing in some degree, like what they're doing in the NFL and stuff. Um I think that um referee cams would be great for um maintaining uh player descent, coach descent. Um you put a camera on, people start acting a different way. Um and uh I think that I've actually have a thought about wearing it and like the grassroots level, like mentally can get pretty hot. If you put a camera on, hey, watch what you're about to say because it's about to be on camera, you know. Um, whereas if you know it's it's all hearsay if you don't have it on camera.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

So I've I've thought about wearing a camera, but um that's why the public law enforcement officers wear it too, it's just right there, right? And it's like at the end of the day, like it sounds silly to say it, but like that is the role that the referees play is they're the law enforcement officers in the game, right? And and then quite literally the law enforcement officers and managing the game and things like that. I I thought the referee cam was cool. And I I had the exact same thought as you was like, wouldn't this be awesome if we had like a referee channel and we have like the ref cam and then we have the communications going on? From an education perspective, it would be un Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Just like you can watch the tactical cam on some broadcasts. Like so you can see what's going on over top. It's been really incredible. Like from an and I would say generally, one thing. So for the listener out there who also comes to Clover Games, the extra person in the booth is usually Corey. He usually shows up, usually comes and hangs out, hangs out with us in the booth, and like we talk about all sorts of random things. But I've really appreciated getting to know that you like the nerd stuff. Like that you're like the craft, you're very invested in the craft of refereeing and improving yourself as a referee. Um and I think and I really appreciate that in the way like players are doing it, coaches are doing it. And I think that it's really cool to see that our top-level referees are doing that too. I think that that just lends credibility to everything that's going on. As AJ said, somebody's going to be unhappy all the time. But it's not it's easy to be unhappy about a call you liked or didn't like, but at the same time, recognizing that this person is out there like getting better and that they're also human too is kind of lost a lot of the times.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Yeah. Yeah. Every game that I'm the center for, the center official. Um part of my my pregame with my crew is hey, like, especially when we're doing you know a Vermont Green game or a clover game, you know, high-level college games, hey, like these guys are investing a lot of time and a lot of energy. Like, we need to bring that same energy into this game. And like, unfortunately, there are you know a few refs out there that you know they show up to a game and you know their shirts untucked, and it just looked like they're not they're not interested. They're they're not interested and invested as much as some other referees are, but uh you know, that's few and far between um in my eyes. But uh, you know, and and that goes back to you know the geek side of this and and and and learning more about the laws, reading up on the interpretations, going on to the IFAB Facebook page and like looking at different scenarios, um, watching, you know, if I'm doing a UVM game, I'm gonna I'm I'm going on ESPN Plus and I'm watching the two previous matches and looking at the game report, where are the cards, who's getting cards, um, you know, so we can prepare for that and and be ready for those situations. But um, you know, it's and the pay is is for US US soccer, the pay isn't great. Like, you know, it's comparable to high school referee pay. It's kind of wild. You got refs coming from Maine, mass, and they're getting paid what a high school referee is getting paid. So it's unfortunate there, but you get into the college level, you know, pay gets a little bit better. Um quality may might get a little bit better there.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So um, but yeah. I think a lot of our youth players are pretty lucky because most of you all who are doing the top level stuff, they're just a small community, right? Most of you all who are doing the top level stuff are also doing like youth games, the older kids youth games, or you know, there's a lot of you who are doing college and high school games, even though the schedules can be really challenging. So I think our our youngest players and our youth players are really lucky in that in that sense that they're getting the experience. Um what if you could make one, let's say, quality of life change to make refereeing like what's what's like a quality of life change for a referee that would be like actually really good. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 26:21

I mean, yeah, like we we're going to uh you know, we're doing these games, and for some of the games we have to show up an hour before the game, you know, so two, three, three and a half, four hours factor in drive time. You know, if you're going to you know a college game in Dartmouth or New Hampshire, you know, that's a lot of time away from the family.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Um and uh you know it it's that's that's tough. Um I don't know. I don't know what the I don't know the answer to that.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Um yeah, I mean we before we knew it, we would have said comms, right? And now it's like we have that.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Yeah, that's the first thing I think of. I mean, every time I do a game, I my wife sends a video of my girl saying, you know, love you, daddy, have a good game. And so I have like hundreds of these videos that make a collage sometime, but um that's what I think of in terms of like you know, my quality of life, and you know, but uh in terms of the game side, yeah, comms.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah. Um do you prefer to be in the middle or on the or on the side?

SPEAKER_04 28:00

Depends. Depends on the level of game. Um Vermont, you know, Clover, Vermont Green, um uh your UBM games. I'll I'll be the fourth official. I'll I'll come and just be the match commissioner and hang out. Like I, you know, um, but uh you know, you get down into you know U14, U16. Um, it can be a long game on the sideline as an AR, especially if there's not a lot of action. Um but uh yeah, I you know I've I've volunteered as match commissioner for a lot of for a few clover games and or uh Vermont Green games too. Um that there's something about that that middle at that high level. It's it's uh you I've done uh a couple exhibition games for the clover for the Vermont Green. I did uh my first uh middle for the Vermont women's this year, and even UVM games. You look at the crowd, the crowd sold out, crowds on the bank, like it's referees come from New Hampshire in mass, and they're like, whoa, like I've and there's been pro referees that have done you know Vermont Green games like this is unmatched, like we don't get this in the USL, you know, one or the championship, like this is next level, and and uh um so that can be you know a surprise to a lot of referees like whoa, like there's a shock factor of you know, there's 3,000 fans here like chanting and losing their minds, and it's uh it's a great experience to be a part of.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah, what do you got, AJ?

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Um, I I'm curious, like you know, you you go through the referee program, um what what does it look like to start refereing, right? Like my my point here is is like you don't just get certified and go start refereing a clover game, right? Like how how does that work? Or or maybe you do, maybe your first game is a Vermont uh clover game, right? Exactly, exactly. So so like what's what's that process look like? Are there different like levels of referee? And do you have to like spend so many time, so much time like refereeing certain games before you can, I guess, graduate up to the next level?

SPEAKER_04 30:12

Yeah, so um, you know, uh different at every level, high school, club, college, you know, up to Clover and the green. Um, you know, it's it but right from the get-go, like you go, you take the class, get your certification, you just start doing as many games as you can. And usually it's at the U10, uh, U12 level. If you're an adult, maybe it's doing some U14 uh games as an AR or a low-level uh game, you're in the middle. Um, and then it's just getting those repetitions, getting a lot of games under your belt. Um and then uh we have in the state referee committee, we have uh advisors who advise the youth uh level, uh the U10, U12 level. And then we have mentors um who are mentoring that those referees that are that have graduated on and they're doing you know a lot more middles at the higher level, and they want to, you know pursue maybe um getting their regional badge um or going on and doing like high-level college stuff. Um, so we have uh these nice good steps uh for referees um in Vermont. Um the uh the regional badge thing uh we've struggled with in Vermont. Um it's just uh we don't have enough opportunities for referees to get the game counts. So unfortunately, referees have to travel out of state to get those those game counts um and pursue that referee uh regional badge. Um I think uh this past year we had two um uh gentlemen, uh one for sure, I don't know about the other, obtain uh referee uh regional badges, um, which is probably the first time in a very long time that we've had referees pursue that.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Okay. Um what's the game count like for that? Like how many games do you have to do?

SPEAKER_04 32:08

Oh, I I don't know the exact number, but it's it's in um dozens of of amateur middles, um, which you know we only really have uh Elite 11, which is an amateur league. We have the Clover now, but before that we didn't have the Clover, so there was really only Elite 11 that you could obtain some middles uh towards that referee uh regional badge. Um, but now you know we've got uh the the clover, um they're gonna have their their teams next year, the women's side, uh the Vermont Wilds. So there's more opportunities now for referees to get those game counts. But yeah, I think it's like something uh must be like 12 to 15 middles of an amateur and like over 20 or 30 as an AR. I don't know the exact number. It's a lot, especially if you're trying to work a full-time job on top of that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Um that is a lot when you consider how many games happen at home a season. So like we played five home games, one, two, and some in the New England Club. But I mean, we only play we played less than less than 10 home games this year, which is you know, and and we're not the only ones, right? So like Vermont, wow, I'd never thought I just when we thought about offering higher-level opportunities for Vermonters to do the soccer thing, referee opportunities is just not something that even entered my thought process until just this moment. Yeah, so to be able to help our best referees get further qualified to become even better, like that's a really cool side benefit of what we're doing. That's awesome. I just have no idea. I never thought about it like that. I mean, it's it's gotta take several years to get all the games you need, even if you're going out of town, because there are plenty of people in those areas that want those games. Yeah. I would you say that that's a thing that in like do you would you say that that's a there are a lot of people that want those higher level games?

SPEAKER_04 34:06

Um yeah, I think so. Yep. Um I I think it's a it's a it's a big deterrent to getting to to trying to level up and going to that, getting that regional badge. Um I've I've suggested, you know, in our in our referee groups before, I'm like, you know, we're doing these games. Um, the same assigners are assigning us for the college games. The game is so close, and it's actually becoming much closer with the the the regional changes that they're making at the in the the schedule changes they're making on the D1 level in the years to come. Uh, the game's so close, you know that that game, those game counts should count towards that regional badge. And it's just the two different entities, you know, and so it's I can understand that it wouldn't work, but you know, in areas like Vermont where we don't have that those that many opportunities, you know, there's there's gotta be something that we can change. But you know, you go to mass and you can get you know five or six games in a weekend. Um, you know, you you uh you go to you know DC in these big metro areas, you a lot more opportunities to get those counts.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

But yeah, you would think that there would be a push, and I don't know where it would come from to have all the referees kind of under the same like overall administrative and governing structure. Because, like you said, it's all the same assigners because it's all the same people doing the things, and the differences between a college game and the amateur game are minimal. It's like some minimal game management stuff, right? The reference the substitution rules are different a little bit, but not like radically so, especially D honest, it's the same now, and you're keeping time and they're keeping time externally. I mean, you have to manage that anyway, but they're keeping time externally, and it counts down to zero. But other than that, it's pretty much it's the same rule set. Yep, same coaches, you know, same players in a lot of cases, same players, same coaches, like very similar rule set, same referees. It's all it should absolutely count for that. I mean, I can see why it wouldn't, but it should. Yeah, yeah. It's another one of those little things. I uh I again I wanna AJ, you have more questions, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Oh, oh yeah, oh yeah. Um so definitely officials can can take some abuse sometimes, be it from coaches, players, fans. Um what's what's the worst of those, right? Like where do you see I guess like the most abuse from? Uh maybe it varies from area or or team to team, but uh, you know, do you ever just walk into a game like knowing, like, oh boy, here we go?

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Yeah, there's definitely a few teams that you know going into it. It's like, all right, we're gonna either clamp down on on this early and we're gonna knock it off, um, or you're just gonna get eaten alive and it's just miserable. Um, yeah, it's uh I think again, it comes down to game management and how can you control the temperature of the game, how can you uh, you know, you know, you know, if you do your research, you know what players are gonna be a pain. And so if you can get, you know, you know, a couple guys on your side, hey, you know, let's keep an eye on him, you know, maybe talk to the captain before the game. But um, yeah, it can be brutal sometimes. Um, I joke with uh some of my buddies that coach um, you know, uh at the Clover at the Vermont Green, UVM, Dartmouth, um before the game, we kind of shake hands with a K for the next 90 minutes. We, you know, we don't know each other. And and that's that's kind of and we when we say that it's hey, like if I have an issue, I'm gonna come to you as a referee to a coach, not as hey, we're we're good friends. Um just it's a different relationship that you have to switch. Um you can't be biased, right? You you gotta you gotta call it both ways. And um for some referees that can be difficult. Um, but you know, most referees that I work with, it's um, you know, we we are able to to turn that switch and say, I'm a referee, you're the coach. That's the relationship that we have the next 90 minutes. Um yeah, sometimes it can be brutal and and some of them stick with you for a minute. Um, it hasn't happened a lot to me. There's a couple that that stick out that uh, you know, um sticks with you for a few weeks and uh you talk it through with your your loved ones and your friends and you try to move on. Um but uh yeah, it can be it can be tough.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

So I you know, as as you talk through that, like I I hear there's like a lot more to being a referee than just knowing the laws of the game, right? So so what's the what what makes a great referee in your eyes, right? Like what's you know, it obviously it takes more than just knowing the laws, but what's the difference between somebody who just knows the laws and and a really good referee?

SPEAKER_04 39:24

Yeah, you gotta um people management, you know, you gotta be a good manage manager of people and uh the different personalities on the field. Um, you gotta know uh you know when you gotta clamp down and and and start issuing cards, uh, you know, stopping the game, taking a few minutes. Hey, you know, I'm gonna take a good 60 seconds to write down this player's number and in this card. We need everybody to kind of chill out here. Um, so it, you know, it's being good at managing the people on the feet on the on the pitch, and um and then when you get into those situations where, you know, hey, I've not I haven't made 100% of the calls with with 100% accuracy. Um I've made mistakes and so it's owning up to the mistakes, um, just not making too many. Um, but you know, it's when a situation comes up where I make a call and uh it wasn't the right call, and the coach is you know giving it to me, you're like, I'll I'll take the time and I'll be like, hey, that's on me. I missed it, you know, we're moving on. But this this you yelling at me for the sideline, we're done. And that those are conversations that we're having you know within three feet of each other. Um, you know, like, hey, like that's my bad. And if you can own up to a mistake, uh, hopefully it's not a big one, uh it it creates a little bit of um it strengthens your relationship with that coach and that managing that game and it builds a little bit of trust. Like, all right, so this guy, you know, he realizes he made the mistake, we're moving on. Um and then you know, letting letting it go. You got to get ready for that next play. And there is actually a lot of um uh the college soccer game right now. The the referee, um, the referees at the NCAA are doing great about um providing uh different things like mindfulness training and things like that to uh help referees um in that in that moment in that game. Hey, you made that you made the wrong call. We gotta move on, gotta get that next call right. Next call, make the next call. So it's finding those moments in the game that you can, it's like your wussaw moment of like, all right, all right, we've got to move on. That was intense, gotta move on to the next call. Um, you know, whether it was a big red card or a missed PK, um uh stuff like that. So um, but yeah, the the the the good referees, the the ones that separate you from being great and and being good average is uh being able to move on to that next call, you know, own up to your mistakes, um, learn from them. You know, I I try to watch a video of um of games that I do. I try to rewatch uh different calls that I make or something that happened in the game. Like I'll like I'll jot it down. Like if I'm an AR, um, I'll jot it down on the book and I'll go back and look at the game. Like, did I make that call right? Like, was that guy really off sides? And um so yeah, just uh always trying to improve your craft of the referee and not just you know showing up with your your shirt untucked and your socks pulled down, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Yeah. I can tell you as a as a coach, there have been times when it really does take all the air out of a situation when like coaches all fired up about a thing, about a call that was inaccurate, right? And the guy's just like the or the the woman, the referee is just like, you're right, I got that one wrong. Sorry. And then everybody's like, like, what are you gonna say after that?

SPEAKER_04 42:49

Like it's like driving a car down the highway, you know, if like we cut somebody off, like, hey, sorry about that. It's gonna be the difference between that guy running you off the road and you having a good travel trip home.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Yeah, and just generally it speaks to the larger, to like the larger thing about like being good at all these things that we do that involve people is like having that little bit of vulnerability and accountability, like self-accountability, like, yep, I got that one wrong. It does build a lot of trust because the next one, whether you get it right or wrong, like you get the benefit of the doubt, right? And you get like just by being a human being. The thing that can be frustrating is when a referee is like, No, I didn't get that wrong. Do you just be quiet? And then it's like, and then everybody's like, and like, look, if you're a coach and you're yelling, like, you're the butt head in the situation anyway, because you don't need to be doing that. Like, I think it's easy for fans to take for granted and coaches to take for granted that every referee is out there doing his absolute best right there. Like, he wants to get every call right, he or she. They want to get every call right because that's what they're there for. They're there to do the best job, just like the players, just like the coaches, just you know, and I think that what gets lost, whether you like the call or not, is that like this is a person out there doing their best thing. Um fun questions. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

To your point on that, yeah. Uh, you know, um I the every every game that we do, we have a we have a pre-game with the referee crew and we talk about um different scenarios, different things that the center referee wants the ARS to be mindful of or watch for. If this happens, I want you to do this. Um and uh I tell right before we you know shake hands, I tell them, hey, you know, I'm checking, I check my ego at the door. Like if I mess up a call, do not let me restart the game until we get the call right and we move move move on with the correct call. And uh um yeah, it to the the again, the the great referees, you know, they check their ego at the door, and um they want the whole it's a team, it's you know, it's all four referees, um, you know, part of a team and to get the right call.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

So yeah, I uh yeah. I fun so fun questions. Okay, you were talking about a game you walk away from when you're like, oh woof, like that was a game I had. When was when was the last time that happened? Like what was the situation?

SPEAKER_04 45:03

Oh, it's it's always like the you know, the amateur men's league kind of stuff, you know, where you know their their uh intensity doesn't match their quality of play. Um and uh yeah, it's it's uh those those games can be rough.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Um what was your what was your well it was the last game that you did where you walked away and you're like, yep, I'm gonna definitely have to like you know, you know, like you just have a game, right? Yeah, it's like you it feels like you can't get anything right. I think have you ever seen Forget Paris? You ever seen this movie? It's like an old school romantic comedy. Billy Crystal is an NBA referee, and he's going through like a challenging period in his relationship with this woman, and he like loses his marbles and he throws Kareem out of his farewell Kareem Al Jewel Dabar out of his farewell game at Madison Square Garden. It and it's a it's I'll send it to you after the thing. It's a hysterical scene, and it's kind of just like he's a human too, but like you know, at the end of it, it's just like career's like like it's my farewell game. And like it wasn't even like he did something like crazy, you know.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

It was like I I would say one one game that sticks out to me uh was I did a middle for Vermont Green versus uh Providence, um, that's Providence team. Um, and when you ever have a game like that, like they're always like, oh, hey, do you want to do this friendly? It's like there's no such thing as a friendly anymore. Like everybody wants to like, you know, they're they're coming up here, they want to prove themselves to their coaches and and maybe to the coaches of the Vermont Green that, hey, I can play at this level. And and so you always get like one or two guys that just come in just way too hot, and you get that all the way down to amateur level. They're trying to prove something. I don't know. But uh, you know, and this game is a friendly, you know, um, before the game, I'm like, all right, hey, like this is a friendly, is there anything any special circumstances that you want to talk about, like substitution procedures? Do you want to do limited subs, stuff like that? Um that just makes the game easy and flow easy, right? We want everybody to play, everybody to be safe and injury free. And like, oh no, call it what you would call it. Like, okay, perfect. First half, uh, guy from Providence goes up and just goes right through the back of one of the Vermont Green guys with an elbow right to the back of the head. Like it wasn't swinging, but just was just reckless yellow card, easy. Second half, same guy, uh scissors slide tackle from behind. I'm like, what are we doing here? Here's your second yellow, marching orders, bye. And then and then that game went from like two nothing to like six, seven, eight, nothing. And I'm just like, and then everyone, everyone's like, Oh, you ruined the game, like you didn't need to throw them off the field. These are all the players, and you know, it's like it's like uh like it made the game very boring for everybody, and then that you have the thousands of fans, you know, watching, and now they're just watching the slaughter, and it's like what do you do, you know?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

And so yeah, well, okay, so uh flip side of that coin, a game you've done, like what's the best one, like the best one ever, like where you walked away from that. Like, this is an unbelievable, like this is the pinnacle. I'm never getting any better than this. Same game.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

I would say there was there there was um there was a game I did an exhibition, I think it was um Jubastar or one of our local amateur teams versus the Vermont Green is another exhibition. Um, I had just kind of like gotten over like a cold. It was like middle of the summer, like July, and like just one of those weird colds you get in the middle of the summer. And um uh the assigner at the time uh you know called me up. He was like, hey, the center official can't make it to the game. You got cut caught in traffic. Can you be there in 30 minutes? I'm like, I'm laying on the couch, not ready for that. I'm like, all right. So I grabbed my grab my stuff and get my liquid IV and start pounding that in the way of the game. And I had the game of my life, and uh, you know, nailed every call. Uh and even the the crew I was working with were like, this is like your Michael Jordan game, like getting over a cold and uh but yeah. Um and then uh there I had I did a uh a girls final, a high school final, um a few years back. And when I originally got the the the game, it was for a Saturday and it got changed to a Friday or something like that. But it totally just and I had a kid at the time, our first kid, and my mind was all over the place. Uh we're on our way home from from dinner, it's uh 6:30, 640, and uh I get a call from the AD, hey Corey, where are you? I'm like, uh my way home from dinner. And he's like, uh, you get a game in 20 minutes. I'm like, get home, get to get to the the field. Uh our pregame was was 30 seconds, uh jump right into the national anthem. We started the game at 7.02, knocked the game out of the park, had a great game, but I don't know, maybe it's those uh moments that uh you know your um anxieties through the roof that I don't know, maybe that's my calm calming moment. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

But yeah, that was wild.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Heightened your awareness.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

You're right, yeah. I mean when you go into it, like, okay, I don't feel well, I'm just gonna do the best I can, or like, oh shoot, I'm just rolling up, I'm gonna do the best I can. Like, there's a certain amount of pressure taken off when you're just like, you know what, I'm gonna show up with the best I got today, and hopefully it's good enough. Yeah, it's gonna have to be good enough, whether it is or isn't, right? Maybe there's some maybe it's some of the pressure coming off. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Um here here's a fun question. Um, I notice every time I go to a game or even a tournament, it's probably more at tournaments than than necessarily individual games. Um, I I was at a uh a tournament uh earlier this year for my son's uh U-12 team, and every single referee that day out on the pitch had the same color. Like, how do you guys coordinate that? Is it is there like a special shirt color for a day of the week kind of thing? Like or are you just calling each other that day, like hey, uh where your blue one? Or or you do you bring them all and pick one when you get there?

SPEAKER_04 51:18

Um here's my my uh all right. So you got all kinds of colors you can pick from. Uh I'm that's amazing that they're all in the same color because that never really happened. But okay. Um yeah, you usually you usually show up with your four colors and or college, you have your three colors and uh you know what what's what's home wearing, what's away wearing, what are the goalkeepers wearing, and then you just yeah, go from there.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

Oh, all right. Yeah, I mean nothing special. Sometimes I show up to like tree farm and uh everybody's wearing the same color ref shirt. I'm like, yeah, how do you guys like coordinate that?

SPEAKER_04 51:52

We try to do that, um, you know, just to kind of keep it uniform. It doesn't always work out that way, but um the VSA, they did a fun thing last fall. Um it's like a fall jamboree, and actually on one of the fields, each referee wore a different color. It's pretty cool. There's like one of the airs had green, one had yellow, the center official was wearing red. Is it's pretty cool. Uh kind of like a wacky Wednesday kind of thing. But gotcha. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

The color thing is like everybody, the first one that everybody buys is that yellow thing because like not very many teams wear yellow, right? And and what you're meant to do is change it, like to not conflict with the teams. But back in the day, the referees always wore black, all black, and teams couldn't wear black. I love that. I love that. I wish we would go back to that. Like having Play-Though is like that.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

Like having multiple, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:42

Having multiple colors is just like, I mean, I think, you know, if for some some referees, you know, they can make this uh a full-time job, but that's at the highest level, right? Um, for grassroots guys, you know, and and and gals, uh, this this is a part-time job. So asking a referee to purchase, you know, um, so I have you know, college, uh, you have high school, you have USSF, and um asking them to purchase all the colors, it just it's a financial burden that really doesn't need to be there. Like we can look at look at over uh overseas, like they're all wearing black, they don't have all these magical colors. Like, um, so I think I think it's a money grab. I think it's a uh, you know, uh somebody's making a lot of money off that. That's unfortunate. Um and it and it uh uh it's a major deterrent for some referees um that are just you know, hey, I'm trying to make some money and like this is I'm good at this, but now I have to buy 50, you know, each jersey like 50 bucks, you know. Oh wow. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Yeah, and it's a hurdle too, like if you're gonna go from if you're just doing USSF stuff, so youth stuff, whatever, and then you're gonna go to high school. It's a completely different set, and you really have to have all of them because like people like they could show up in yellow, and then it's like if all you've got is yellow, then what are you gonna do? Right? You're you really do have to do that. So it is, especially for those kids that are like just getting into it, like they're trying to experience the game in a little bit different way. But really, what they want to do is at 14 years old, like being a referee is a pretty good job, right? Show up referee a couple of U10 games and then like go play your own game, and like that's a like uh or work in a tournament when you're in high school. I mean, there's a few hundred dollars that you're walking away with, is you know, and it's it's good work around the game, hard work, but it's good work around the game rather than sitting at some ice cream stand or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 54:33

And I talked my niece and my nephew into it this uh this summer, past winter. I'm like, hey, like you come up, visit me, do a tournament over the weekend, you'll walk away with two, three hundred bucks, four hundred bucks.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Yeah. Um, and this is another thing too, I think about with the refereeing. Like the I think refereeing the U10 games is like one of the hardest things because you're not it's not like a funny story. You're uh I want to hear this in a second, but you know, what you're doing is you're teaching the game, right? Like, because those kids don't know, like they know if it's out of bounds, but like what is what happens next. Like they're learning it right alongside, so you have to actively be a teacher. Whereas like by the time you get to you know 15, 16, everybody knows the rules. All right, let's hear that story. Yeah, so um last summer, is it this past summer?

SPEAKER_04 55:21

Yeah, this past summer. Um, I did a um no, it was last summer, sorry. Uh I did um a um U10 game, but I was originally there um advising uh some new referees. Um so I was doing two of the games, the player, the referees games, and I did the first game, and I look over for the second, getting ready for the second game, and there's no referee. And the referee for whatever reason didn't show up. And so I always bring my whistle when I go to the tree farm. And so I pop over, I'm like, hey, like I'll do the game today. So I I did the game. Oh, I didn't have my whistle, so I was just saying I'd say tweet tweet, like if I'd use that. Um that was the funny part of it. Then uh later that night I had a Vermont green game. So I went from doing this U10 game on one end of the spectrum and then show up to you know the green game at six o'clock. So that was a pretty cool uh from one end to the other. Um but uh this past summer I went down to Florida to visit family, jumped into a tournament, and uh the head coach was Charlie Davies. Um that was really cool. And it was a U12 match, yeah, U10, U12 match. And then down in Florida, like this tournament, these kids were doing like scissor kicks, and it's like this is wild. It's really I I recommend everyone do you know. If you're even if you're the most the highest level referee, go do some U10 games. It's fun, like you said, the kids have no idea what's going on. Like uh it's it's there's a lot of cute moments. Um, but uh yeah. A lot of fun at the U10 level.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Well, yeah, and when you're like, okay, it is a goal kick now, and they're just looking at you like you just grew a second head and you're like, okay, this is what a goal kick is. Oh, yeah, but that's in here. It's gotta come up with it.

SPEAKER_04 57:06

The best is when they pass it back to the goalkeeper, and the goalkeeper picks up the ball, and now you have an indirect free kick for the attacking team. They have no idea what's going on. Well, I even did wrong. It's like thank you.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

I picked it up. I'm supposed to use my hands. And especially like also the funniest thing is like the beginning of the fall every year is when like that's when the like the kids, because they go from U8, where it's like the rules are like, you know, just like it goes out of bounds, you kick it back in. Like it's dare, it's not really the game. There are no rules. Right, right. It's okay. And then there's I mean, yeah, where there's rules, and it's like, okay, you got this, you got the like the build out line, you got all this stuff, and they don't really, I mean, they're seven, you know, like they're eight, like now they're nine, and they don't really know. And it's it's uh, it's I like that little kid ages, it's really a lot of fun to a lot of fun to watch.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Awesome, Corey. I want to pivot a little bit. Um, if if everything I read here is still accurate, it says that about 10 years ago, almost 11 years ago, you were appointed as the vice chair for the Vermont Governor's Council on Physical Fitness and Sports. Can you tell us a little bit more about what exactly is that council charged with doing and what is your role there?

SPEAKER_04 58:15

Yeah. Oh man, that was elect like a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Um is it something you're still actively doing?

SPEAKER_04 58:22

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Oh, okay, okay, gotcha. Because the way it read is just like it's something you're still doing.

SPEAKER_04 58:28

Oh, was that like a like a like a LinkedIn thing or something? Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. I gotta go change that. Uh I I uh stepped away from that right before COVID, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Oh, okay, okay, gotcha. Uh well, I mean, we can talk about it anyway. Like what did you do?

SPEAKER_04 58:44

Yeah, it was um it's uh it was a council um uh appointed by uh the governor. Uh I started doing the work when I was uh that while I was at the hospital, um, is really directly correlated with uh worksite wellness um and uh um uh physical fitness. And so we were doing a lot with worksite wellness, we're doing a lot with uh uh Vermont Adaptive uh sports um and uh we you know the the the 5k that they do in Montpelier every year. So it was a lot of like uh event coordination and promotion um uh for uh the people of Vermont.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

So okay. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

I thought that meant you were like the uh the Arnold Schwarzenegger of of Vermont. Kids are doing the quarry tests in the school to make sure that they're physically fit because that would be awesome. We got the quarry award again. Yeah, I could stretch bar and I could do a monopoly. Oh yeah. Arnold Schwarzenegger was the spokesperson for it, right? I'm not making this up, am I?

SPEAKER_00 59:56

No, no, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, awesome. I I think we're just about at our hour here. Uh, so we should probably go ahead and wrap it up. Um, Corey, if somebody has listened to this episode and thought, I want to be a referee, where do they start?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

Shoot me an email. Um I've got a spot for you. Um yeah, uh go on to uh the Vermont Soccer Association's website. Um, we have all of our information there um for uh upcoming clinics, uh, you know, people to contact. Um and uh you know, yeah, we have uh a clinic, I think, coming up in October. Um, and we always have uh a jamboree, uh um a fall league. Um it's great for for new referees. Um and then over the winter we have our classes, and then we typically will have a jamboree in the spring for all new referees to uh get acclimated to the game, and uh, there's a bunch of uh advisors there that will help you along. And um and uh that's another piece of the the committee that we didn't I didn't really talk too much about, but you know, we have a lot of great advisors that um will will go to these games where it's you know a referee's first or second game, they're really nervous. Uh rightfully so, and in my when somebody tells me they feel nervous, that makes me feel good. It means they care. Uh when they're not nervous, I'm like, ooh, you know, maybe uh referee, I don't know. Um, but uh the the advisors are really great at you know calming their nerves, like hey, like you're gonna make mistakes, like just move on and and just you know have fun. That's the biggest thing we want our new referees to do is have fun. And uh to the to the to the fans, you know, let's let's chill out at the U10 and the U12 games, please. Uh I I appreciate the energy, but uh yeah, yeah, let's relax just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

Yeah, I I know some uh very enthusiastic parents that are uh on one of my son's travel teams, and it was it was nice to get a little bit of a break from them this past year. I'll just say that.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:04

Just hold that thought in or run it by a friend first before you say it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

Well, yeah, it's like I mean, these kids are nine years old. Well, in Tim's case, what he's 11, like they're 11. Like it's you probably don't need to like, and maybe this is their pinnacle soccer experience, but like, you know, there aren't people going to the top-level game screaming at the referees, so maybe you don't need to on the sideline of your child's game. Yeah, you know, I mean, and you know the kids all hear that, and they're all talking about like whose parent is like the one. It's like, yeah, you're dad. No way, baby.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:37

Yeah, you but you brought something in the beginning. I think it's AJ or or you, Chris, in the beginning, you know, um, what would you want for the game or something like that? And I think what would be really cool is um, you know, like in the NFL, like you have referees that are um, you know, holding deep fence, five-yard penalty. Everybody, all right, everybody, everybody in the stands knows what's going on. At a soccer game, no one in the stands has any idea what's going on when a referee makes a call. Like now we have you know, video review, and the referee will come out and say, after review review, there was a PK, boom. But I think it would be great if uh you know referees had a way to communicate, whether it's like they're add a calm to the to the booth, like, hey, like this is this is the call, handball, or this is a call, no handball, PK, yellow card, whatever it is. But yeah, everybody, it's it's funny. I'll go to a mock green game and sit up in the fans uh in the stands of my friends, and the referee will make a call and everyone's losing their mind. And so I'll like actually like chirp and be like, hey, this is what the call was, everybody. Like just to kind of like little uh add a little comedy to it. But um, I think that'd be that'd be cool. Just have like a hey, this is what the call was.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

Yeah, that would be really cool, actually. And you could do it in certain places where there's PA announcers, like we could do it, like Green could do it. You could do it at a lot of high school games. He's talking the whole game, yeah. Yeah, and and and I find that I find that a lot of times when I'm coaching on the sideline, like I'm asking the like the fourth official if there's a fourth official, or ask the AR, hey, help me out with that one. Not because I'm like, not because I'm like, no, that's not right. I'm just like, hey, that could have been a trip, or it could have been this or it could have been that. Just help me out with what that was. Yeah, yeah. And and they're always helpful to do it. They're like, oh yeah, he saw him trip them. Like, okay, great, like that's cool. I know that, right? Because and it's not even like a oh, what was the call, in a way, like not like that at all. It's like, hey, I'm just curious about what that was.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:32

I'm really confused, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

Yeah, yeah, and not even confusion. And I find myself doing it at the Clover games with the fourth official, hey, help me out with that one. Like, yeah, was it like it looked like maybe it was his hand, but also he kind of got tripped. Like, what was the actual? Because you know, I I think that that's important.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

And then as the most as a coach, you can move on, you know, you can move on to the next play instead of like that's gonna be in the background. What what was that call? Like right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

Yeah, absolutely. Parting thoughts? Anyone? I don't have any parting thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

I I I guess uh I've got like one last question. It sounds like you've traveled around quite a bit for uh your your referee experience. Um how how big of a problem is like referee abuse in the state of Vermont? Is it less than other places, more than other places, if you had to like throw it on a scale?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:23

Yeah, I mean, I think any referee abuse is is you know too much. Um you know, you I I I make this joke, but I'm serious. Like you you go to Starbucks, you get a coffee, uh, you go to your car and it's it's caramel not mocha. You're not gonna go back in there and berate the barista.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:41

You know, like and so why are we doing this uh to the referee? Um, but I I went uh I did a game. Um uh it was a UPSL game down in Florida, and uh that that was uh probably one of the um yeah, I think there's like three red cards, uh one for serious foul play, two of the coaches got kicked off the field. Uh I think Florida was probably the worst uh experience for me. I'll go back and I'll do I'll do more games because I'm I'm crazy like that. And um, but uh yeah, that was uh that was quite the experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

Interesting. So Vermont, not nearly as much of a problem as as uh Florida.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:22

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely definitely room for improvement, you know. Um I think I think everyone can always improve and how they treat referees and and uh in each other, but um yeah, the the big the big uh push uh campaign is respect the call. Um so you'll see you'll you'll start seeing uh more banners and and uh um um messaging at at games uh saying respect the call um uh in the in the near future, I believe. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

Yeah, the the the from a practical perspective, it gets to be less and less kind of the higher the level that you go to, if that makes any sense. Because the from a player's and coaches perspective and referees, like y'all know each other, y'all see the same people over and over and over again, especially in a small state like Vermont. I I've always felt, and this is the same with Vermont and everywhere else, it's the absolute worst is at like 10, 12, and 14 is where it's like the absolute worst. And it's like these are these are like elementary and middle school kids where like you should be really setting the best example, right? Yep. Partly it's because like there's different levels of play from a lot of the different kids, partly it's because there are tend to be less experienced andor younger referees at those ages, right? And younger referees have a harder time than older referees, just be from a respect perspective. It's the same with coaches, whatever. You see somebody who's 18 or 19, and a parent who's 40 is looking at them and they don't see them as in the same peer group, so they treat them. Differently than they would if they would treat you, right? Just by virtue of because people are people. Um, so I think that those are the hard and there I can't answer this from a referee's perspective, but I think that generally speaking, we're pretty friendly to referees in Vermont, which isn't to say it doesn't happen ever, because it certainly does.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:10

But I think that it's a lot better having seen soccer in other places. I think it tends to be a lot better in Vermont. New Hampshire's is like pretty similar, like Maine's pretty similar, like it's generally, but like the more people go down south and it's like forget it, they hate them.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:26

Yeah, you saw I saw in the World Cup. Um, I can't remember what what uh referee crew it was, I think maybe in the semifinals. Um But uh the the they get to the airport and they're getting like chairs thrown at them when the when their family, their family was right there with them. Like that was like just I'm like, first off, why are the referees flying like general public? There's a lot less important people on private jets. I think we can put the jet the the referees on the jets, but I thought that was wild.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:58

Like very little security, like well, and just be a human being, right? Like not to the referee, to the people that are like, you know what I'm gonna do right now? I'm gonna throw a chair at that referee because I didn't because he they did a bad job in that game or a job that I didn't like. Like, I'm gonna throw a chair at that guy. That's I'll show them. I'll throw a chair. Like, what goes through your mind? Yeah, in the moment, I can see, and look, I'm by no means an angel, as you can test. I'm by no means an angel on the sideline. And in the moment, sometimes like you got a thing that you just gotta get out there, right? But that's in the moment with a chance to take a deep breath. Like, you're not throwing the chair, right? Like it just that that boggles my mind.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:39

That would even be you need better friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

Yeah, I guess so. That's the title of the episode is you need better friends. We always pull like a little quote out of this to title the episode. That's not gonna be the one, but it'd be fun if it was. Yeah. Um, I don't know. What do you got? Parting shots, Corey. What do you got?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:00

Um, yeah, no. Uh, you know, I we in Vermont, I think we had like 250 referees uh sign up this year. Uh and uh, you know, kind of there's ebbs and flows. Um we certainly would love to have more referees. Um so you know we we've been trying to you know partner with you know clubs like hey, like in some of these difficult areas, you know, get some folks from your your club to to sign up to referee games. Um and uh every you know every every bit helps. Um even if there's like one or two from a club, um it will go a long way and uh make the game better. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Gotcha. I think that's uh a great way to end the show. We will put links in the show notes to uh everything mentioned here. Uh so if you are interested in signing up to be a referee, you can go ahead and uh check out the Robot Soccer Association page. Corey, thank you so much for joining us. And uh Chris, as always, thank you for co-piloting this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

Yeah, of course. I'd be happy to do it. Love it. Thanks for coming, Corey. This is great.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:14

Yeah, no, I was psyched to you asked me, and yeah. Do it again.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:20

Great. Yeah, all right. All right, well, join us next time on another episode of the Pink and Green Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

Bye now.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

That's gonna do it for today's episode of the Pink and Green Podcast. A huge thank you to our guests for joining us and sharing their story. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. It helps more people discover the growing soccer community here in Vermont. You can follow Vermont Clover FC and the Pink and Green Podcast on social media for updates, match coverage, and behind-the-scenes content throughout the season. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Until then, keep supporting local soccer and keep the game growing.