SPEAKER_03 0:32

Nothing to take away podcast where we explore the wise Vermont software through the lens of community culture and the game itself, featuring stories from Vermont Clover SD. Join us as we talk with players, coaches, and people keeping the features that the game is untouched. This is the Pink and Green Podcast, and I am AJ, and he is Chris. Chris, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

I'm doing fantastic. I what's going on with you today?

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Uh work getting pulled in many different directions because we have a another conference coming up later and we're changing cloud platforms and uh project after project after project, but it's all good. I I love uh the weather we're having right now. It's a very cool, crisp morning, very fall-like here in July, which I thought was interesting. But yeah, how about you?

SPEAKER_02 1:40

My children do not appreciate the crisp morning. They're they're gonna once preseason starts. What's going on with me? I'm thinking about technology right now. Um, we had a little kerfuffle earlier today, and it's a little bit later. But um here's what I'm really thinking about is like when we think of technology, we think of things like computers and the iCloud and whatever. But by actual definition, technology is like you pick up a stick and you put it down a hole to get some ants on it, and that's like a tool technology. Yeah. So we've come pretty far from come pretty far from sticking sticking sticks down holes to pull out ants to eat. And where we're at right now, where we're on video. I'm just thinking about how we throw technology into a certain thing, but it actually means all sorts of different things.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah, deep thoughts by Chris, I guess. We do these a lot of times, Drew. We do, we really do. Should we introduce our guests?

SPEAKER_03 2:29

We we should. We should we should also do a separate uh segment called Deep Thoughts with Chris. That would be great. Nobody wants to hear that. If if you've been to a clover game, you have heard this voice before. He is the voice of Vermont Clover FC. Happy to introduce today Drew La Frenz. Welcome to the show, Drew.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Thanks, thanks for having me. Yeah, we're really I gotta know.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Like, like, are you are you a radio DJ, voice talent? Like, what's what's the background there?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

I am a musician and I um so I do have voice, uh, not necessarily training per se, but I've I've been singing in either choirs or as a musician since I was young. Um I do I do use my voice in that way a lot. Um, as far as the announcing thing, um, I've also worked in athletics for you know 20 odd years. And um as you go through, you know, trying to coach soccer in small division three schools, you tend to try to wear as many hats and earn as many dollars as you possibly can. Um and uh one of those for me was game management for a lot of small schools, and I would get I would get the opportunity, honestly, to to to be the MC for a lot of games, yeah, all baseball games and and and do the the announcing for basketball and other stuff when I wasn't in season. And so I have had practice at this, but I wouldn't say that I'm a uh you know a professional or it's all that experienced, but I have done a lot of it.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, the the other thing about small athletic departments is um I guess uh fortune favors the bold. So if you're willing to do it 99% of the time, whatever the thing is, if you're willing and want to do a thing, you are gonna start doing that thing. And then people think, Oh, you're really good at this. Let's get you in again there. This is this is also how I so I I'm the voice of the Middlebury figure skating club's uh ice show that they do at Middlebury College, which and I love it, it's one of my favorite days of the year. Yeah, it's awesome. I get to announce the kids, I get to hang out down and like the thing and dance to the music and whatever, but that also has led to occasional times doing the PA work for Middlebury ice hockey games because literally because I was willing and enthusiastic to do a thing, and sure, there aren't so many people, right? Yeah, I I want to just share my appreciation for being able to spend games with you because the couple of games you haven't been at, it's pretty lonely there. It's me just talking to myself. We're a pretty good team over there, I think.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

It is. I know it's fun because we've got we've we both do enjoy the game itself. I'm glad we've got a switch on the microphone. I think that's really, really important. Um, that we're not saying necessarily everything that we we do discuss over the microphone. Um, but it's it's it's definitely fun because we we enjoy the game as much as we enjoy calling it and and working professionally on it.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Oh, yeah, it's the microphone switch is key. Uh you know, every relationship, including hours with people on the other side of the field and everybody else, yeah, it needs to have a little bit of mystery in it.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

I mean, I think the first day when I first announced Vermont Clover and I heard people cheering, I'm like, hey, they're cheering. And I was I said that right on the microphone.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

It's working.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Yeah, it's true. And like half the time, I want to look over and talk to Buchek or Al and like, but this is not going on.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah, I mean, I think it's cool to be able to highlight the people that really make the the not just the clover thing go, but like Vermont soccer go. You're a little less involved now, but you've got some pretty deep roots in the Vermont soccer scene. Can you share a little bit about those with us?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, sure. I uh I mean soccer was when I moved here in '94 and I'd played, you know, a little high school and a little colleague uh collegiately, and um I kind of took some time off from college and started just working. And soccer was honestly my connection and or one of the real connections that I made, just playing men's leagues games and just sticking with the sport and um and loving it. And um over time, you know, long story very short, I went back to Johnson State College. And when I went back to school, um I was started playing college soccer again. And I was fit and I was ready, and I was a little older and a little wiser. I was in that kind of you know mid-20s range where athletically I was really strong and mentally I was much stronger. And um, and I oddly enough, my first year at Johnson was Brian Buchek's first year, and so that's kind of the connection that we created. Um, and then partially because of the fact that he was a young coach and I was an old player, we would talk a lot about the game and and kind of forged a relationship off the field that was a little bit more mature than you know, some of the stuff that we'd had with our with the other players. And um, I was there for two years as a player, and then I came back for a third year and I ran out of eligibility because I'd had too many semesters in school because of my roundabout route. And um, you know, I remember distinctly Brian coming to me and saying in the summertime, he's like, You want to go for a ride? And I didn't know what was going on, but we went for for we drove around a little bit and he let me know I was ineligible. And I I we I just coached with him that year. Um, and that kind of got me really kind of back into coaching and and just kind of um and just wanting to stay connected to the sport in any way I could. I just loved being around it. And um from there I was an assistant with him for a couple of seasons. I went down to Boston University and got a master's degree in coaching. Um, I spent six years on the men's side at Newbury College. I spent another six or seven years back here at Johnson State College, coaching both the men's and women's teams. Um, that we started as Johnson State, and then we moved to Northern Vermont University and then to you know Vermont State University. And so that's why I'm not coaching anymore because that's that would that kind of went that blew up a little bit from a unit that's the standpoint of the college itself and the school itself. But um, yeah, I I love the game. I was I've I've been coaching and playing most most of my life, and it's it's a it's a big part of who I am.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Wow, very cool. Like, like I obviously didn't didn't know you and you know, great voice. You stands on your own to to be there and be the announcer, but to hear that you have like such deep roots in local Vermont soccer too, like that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah, yeah. It's a it's I mean it's it's a fortunate thing to be in this in this community because it's a really great community of coaches and of people and of players. Um the one game that I missed this year from a clover standpoint was missed because I was playing music at a graduation party for the last group of players that I recruited at Johnson State College. Oh, wow. They called me up and um and and said, Hey, listen, we we're we're doing this big graduation party. We're really pumped that you're the reason we got here and we'd love to celebrate with you and have you play some music for us. And so um, as much as I missed that game, I that was really great to you know to kind of keep those connections going. And um, it's an awesome, it's an awesome thing to be around.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah, also there's a ton of Johnson connection, and not just with Clover, but in the local soccer scene specifically. If and it feels like there's more Johnson guys around than there are like UVM guys. There's not very many Green Mountain College guys, you know, or Linden guys. I mean, there's probably more Linden than I realize, but it seems like Johnson keeps coming up whenever you talk about, oh, what's this person's background? It's it seems like Johnson just keeps coming up and coming up. And you were so you coached the men with Buchek for a while, and then you moved over to the women's side as the head coach, right? Is that how that went?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Uh no, so actually I I when I so I coached with Brian as a kind of like a student assistant. I I hadn't graduated, that was the first year, and then uh you know, I moved. We I graduated, we worked, did all this sorts of different things, our friendship stayed the same. Um, it was a couple of years later, I don't, I'm not gonna remember how many exactly, but it was a couple of years later when he was coaching both men's and women's because Brian had two stints at Johnson. He had his first one and then he left and he came back, and it was that second one he brought me in. He was actually coaching both men and women. Um, and Jimmy Rose and I came in um and and worked with him and Nate Gardner. Um, and we had it was another great thing. And it was kind of right at the time when I was starting to think about maybe pushing for that to be a full-time thing for me. Um, and that's really what led me down to Boston and getting that master's degree and then chasing all the pipelines and all the you know, all the licensure and all that kind of stuff. Um, and that's it. So it went, it went for me. I came back as an assistant, and then I went down into Boston and I got the job at Newbury College, and I was an assistant for one year, and then a head coach for six. Um, and then that job led me back up here to Johnson State.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah, right on. And you were coaching the women when she was coaching the men, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

That's correct. Yes. When I came back to Johnson, um, I'd just taken the job um one year, and um, I'd just finished my first year with the women. We made it back to the playoffs. We were starting to show some strength, and then the men's job came open, and I was definitely tempted to make that jump right then. But I talked to my AD at the time and I was like, listen, I just started this, and I don't, it doesn't feel right to me to to move away right away. I I really want to keep building what we're building, so let me just support the men's team on the way I've been doing it. And that's that's where Shane was in that hiring process, and I was on that committee. Um, and uh, and so yeah, got to work with Shane for a couple of years. That was great. And then when Shane left, I was like, okay, I'm not gonna miss another chance. I'm gonna I'm gonna jump over and take the men's over and and and work on that.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah, and so you did that for a couple of years, and then Alec. It was Alec right after you.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, Alec, and uh, and I brought so that whole thing with that was I made all those transitions really intentional. Um, when I left the women's team, I I worked really hard to bring in a the person, uh, the successor who was someone who could really work strongly. Um, and Norm is still there and doing really good work. I'm proud of that, of that effort to try to really steward that issue and and make sure that that program was still strong. Um, and then I was really psyched about the men's side and really wanted as my plan there was to you know stay with that group until retirement, honestly. But the school just was going through so many changes, and they I was also working as an academic, and I was uh I was in charge of the sport management concentration and teaching classes, and that's really where the career money was coming from. Um, and so that plug got pulled. Um, and so that's kind of why I had to kind of step away and reevaluate things because I you can't coach soccer, especially in that division three collegiate level, without just gobs of effort. Like the recruiting aspect of it is is awesome and it's really fun, but it requires a lot of travel and it requires a ton of time and a ton of focus. And I couldn't put my family through that and go back to being a part-time coach. Um, so I I grew I brought Alec in and I was like, listen, I'm I'm not gonna stay after this year. I'm I'm looking for someone quality to come in and be an assistant for one year, and then I'm gonna hand the job to you. I'm gonna put you in a position where you're gonna be able to take over. Um, and so that worked out really well too, because we got to have a really good year together. Um, you got to really see what we were and what we were doing. It was protective of the players, and then he was able to come in and he's still there too.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah, it's I think that uh the story in all this that maybe is under undertold a little bit is how much kind of transition there's been at all of the Vermont state schools over the last, I don't know, I want to say decade, but it's really like the last five or six years, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Maybe it's been really tricky the last five or six years, yeah. Pre and post-COVID um were really, really tricky there for sure.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Yeah, and and the the larger issue is that, like just to kind of condense it a little bit, is that the way that Vermont, like the powers that be in the Vermont education department, are trying to figure out how to deliver high quality post-secondary education in the best way for Vermont, right? And and that's a really, really challenging thing for a couple of reasons. Number one, it's just plain challenging in the current environment we're in where college is getting more expensive and the demographics aren't your friend. Number one. 100%. And number two, how do you do that in a way that you keep it affordable and you keep these schools in rural communities going? Because to think about Johnson and Castleton and Linden, which are three of the four Vermont State schools, um, you know, Vermont State Randolph, which is you know, Vermont Tech, but all four of them are really like really drivers of the local economies in those places because these are small towns. And and a job at a college, even if you're the person pushing a broom for 22 bucks an hour, that's actually a really good job in a small rural town because you got all the benefits and you got all that stuff. So as the Vermont as the powers that be have figured out how to work through it, they've kind of thrown a lot at the wall to see what sticks and works really well. This is mostly for the listener, not for you, because you obviously know that.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

I've been through it, yeah, for sure. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

And so the NVU thing was okay, and that was like the Lyndon and Johnson thing, and then they decided that lasted for two or possibly three years, and that disappeared, and then they decided it was going to be Vermont State University, and then there was like at Johnson at Linden. Vermont Tech wasn't Vermont Tech.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

I think that maybe that initial that final idea might have been the best idea in the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Right. Really make those colleges a full state system. I think we kind of were that already. There was already a VSC thing, uh, there was already oversight. Um, the the Lyndon or and Johnson merger happened right after I got right after I got hired. I was hired in 2016 and it was announced that following spring, and then you know, gone down the road there. Um, it was working-ish. Um, it's just that it's a tough thing to try to merge anything like that because even academically there's competition, right? And and the the competition between the rivalries on the athletic field were really great. Um, but it's really tough to just put you know competing in uh schools together like that. Um and then to add everyone to that discussion was also completely difficult. Um at one point they were shutting down, I think, two or three of those campuses right in the middle of COVID. Um there was a lot of protests and there was a lot of action-oriented thoughts to try to keep things going. And um it was a it was a challenging, challenging, challenging time. And I'm really glad that there is still some semblance of those schools all operating. I think they do mean a ton to those communities. Um, and to your point, like with all the Johnson um you know alumni kicking around, I think if you were down in Rutland, I think there's a million Cassidy guys doing the same thing. And I think those all of those schools have massive impacts on their community. And I think it's just a it's a I don't I I I will say necessity. I think it's a really important resource. Um and I think we're trying to figure it out, and I I honestly I do hope that they do so. I'm definitely a little disappointed about how some of those things went. And um, it took me a little while to stop being angry and speak rationally about it, but I I uh I'm I'm grateful for my time there, and I'm certainly grateful for my degree there. My wife and I are both Johnson graduates, and you know, we're still doing cool things in our community. So it's it, we I I know the real the reality of what it can create. And so I think that's true in all those communities. I think all four schools do those things very well.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah, and just working around uh again for the powers that be, like not that they get things right, but you know, just recognizing, hey, it's really important to keep these things going, even if whatever the you know, whatever they find is the right equilibrium for like local student population, it's gonna be good, right? It's gotta be, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah, yeah. It's necessary, it's a necessity. It's we you can't have UVM as the one place um for the kids to go in the state. We need we need options, the kids need options. Um, and there's so much that there's so many of the teachers, um, so many of the people that are professionals in our communities are are educated at these state schools. It's a really important resource.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah, and we want to try to keep, I think, you know, it part of the Clover mission is keep the best soccer players in state playing, right? But the mission of the Vermont state schools is no different, is keep the most talented Vermonters here in Vermont to be able to do the things in their community, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

And make them help them gain more talent, help them gain knowledge. It's it's and then and we also recruit and bring in people from other places who think Vermont would be great. And then, you know, I'm an example of that. I I wasn't I was already here on my own, but I I really grew roots here largely because of my degree, um, and certainly supported by my degree. And then I I've been here for almost 30 years now.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, I'm the same way. My time frame, my time scale is a little bit shorter than that, you know. But at 2022, I moved here. So, you know, we're coming up on 25 years, right? Yeah, you know, and again, I was here and then went back to college. And I think about a lot of the people that we we have in common, like Buchek's the same way. He came here to go to Johnson and he kind of never left. I came here to I came here and then went to Green Mountain and never left. You came here, you did whatever, you went to Johnson and you never left.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Right. Shane. Well, Shane was CVU, so he but Shane's a Green Mountain guy, too. Like, and we and we know those those little rivalries kind of get to we get to keep them a little bit, you know. We get to keep talking smack after all these years of of uh of being gone from those games. It still matters that we still talk about them, we still have great memories. Brian's I listened to Brian's podcast and I remember Robbie's goal that he talked about, right? When we in that first year at St. Joe's. Um, and that's a college that's no longer there anymore, right? And it's yeah, there's there's just a lot of really great memories and a lot of really great um just impact on the community that not only soccer, but educationally speaking, like these smaller higher ed institutions are important.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Oh, yeah. And you would have played, and and what people don't realize, most people don't realize, is that there's an incredibly rich soccer tradition at Vermont's small schools. Now UVM's got a great tradition, right? But that's a big school. But the small schools, man, back in the day, it was so the Mayflower Conference, as you know, it's basically the footprint of the the North Atlantic Conference and NCAA D3 now, but it was an NAI conference and like Green Mountain and Johnson and Lyndon was also really competitive and St. Joe's and Rutland, but like Green Mountain and Johnson were both nationally competitive programs, right? Like the national championship kind of came through Vermont, and people don't people don't think about that. And there were some really great players who went on to play professionally, and there's guys coaching that played there. And I mean it's unbelievable that, and it was mostly uh at least to Johnson, it was lots of Vermont guys on those rosters, which is pretty wild to think about because we don't normally think about Vermont as this soccer hotbed, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:12

It it it well, it's we're starting to see what a hotbed it is, I think, even more clearly now, and that's a really cool feeling, I think, for a lot of us that have been around a long time. I think we've always known this as a soccer state. That's always felt like a soccer state to me. And to have that be something that's um becoming widely recognized and appreciated and celebrated is a really cool feeling. Um, and like every time we're at games together, you know, you've got Wade Gene, who's a Johnson guy, coaching at St. Mike's. Um, you know, obviously Brian and I are on the sideline together, and that's that's that's a great connection. I see Jefferson Hale's walking up, and he's a Johnson badger. Um, there's it's just it's constant. You see kids on the side, like on the on the team a little bit. We're starting to see some badgers kind of making some sum waves on the team, and that's really cool. Um, when you got Jubastar coming in with uh with uh who's who's who leads Jubastar? Umson guy, huh?

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Newarm Boulay, he's a Johnson player.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah, Nor Boulet. Nor was an incredible player for Brian, was one of his best second of the second wave of guys that came through. Nor's an incredible player. Um, and yeah, so just it's it's it's just great. It's great to be a part of that community. It's great to love soccer the way we all do. We see each other at all these games. Um, and and you know, we still go to UVM games and get and see a bunch of guys running around, and it's it's awesome. It's great to see what Clover's doing because that I I love the fact that what you're doing is really focusing on Vermont soccer and giving people opportunities. You know, we we created or we kind of came, I came up in the Vassal era where we would all play for Team Mandible or whomever in the summertime. And that was a really nice step up from basic men's league stuff. Um, but this is a another another level and it's it's an important level. It's a necessity.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah, competing regionally with the opportunity to compete nationally once we get it all dialed is like that's a big I mean vassal was good, the quality was really good. But at the end of the day, it's a local men's league, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Just the big men's league, right? 100%. This is a much different enterprise, much bigger effort and much more, I think, potentially impactful. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Yeah, I think so too. And you know, being able to, so when we go to premiere next year, we're gonna have we're gonna have the opportunity to, if we have a good season, to compete at a national level. You know, you play out the regional stuff, and then I mean, that would be a dream come true, right? If to even get a sniff at to even get a sniff at that would be, and how about that for validation on the overall quality of Vermont soccer, right? Like a team of all Vermont kids with Vermont coaches, you know, doing it with Vermont things, being able to be competitive at the national level. Like that would be something. Now, I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but it'd be really something if we could make it happen. I think we've got the quality to do that.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

I think we can make it happen, and I think it I would say will is a strong word, obviously, but I believe that. Um, and I I think it's uh I think it's a matter of time and and just kind of continuing to marshal resources in the right way. And I think that's already starting to happen. And I would imagine that we can do that. And we I say we now because you and I had that conversation in the booth the other day where I was like, You guys are doing great. He's like, No, man, we're doing great.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

You are part of the elite.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

That's right, it's a we're doing this. It isn't, I mean, you can't be the voice of Vermont Clover and then call us, you know, can't we can't be us and them when the voice of Vermont Clover, you're a wee but a big reminder, and it felt great, honestly, to be a part of this because it is a really, really, really important idea, and it's I the potential is just massive, I think.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, did when Shane was when we were talking about like here's the help that we really ideally want to have, Shane was like, Oh, you should get in touch with Drew. And I don't know if he talked to you about that first or if it was like a cold text from me or what. Like, how did that all come about?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

No, honestly, I came to the first game because it's you know it's Buchek and I love soccer, right? And that that was really the simplicity of the first effort. And then as I was walking off, I was I I would talk to Buchek and I'm like, hey man, I need to hear more. I would like I want to see this grow. And I've got that sports management mindset too. So I'm always kind of when I when I'm at an event like that, I look at it the totality of it. Um and I was you know, a lot of my as I Vermont Green came up during my tenure at Johnson, and so a lot of my students were working as interns, and I was so I was very much a part of the beginning of that too, and um, and just so seeing them grow that brand and seeing them grow their match environment. And you know, my son was a ballboy on the first for the first ever Vermont Green match, right? And um, just to see that environment grow. So when I walked off the field that day, I was like, that was an incredible soccer team, but we got to do something about that. We got to make more happen on the sideline. I want to I want to see more. And the big thing for me, what I thought I could contribute with, I was like, I let me know if I can come over and and get on the mic, because I want someone hollering about all those goals you scored. And that there was there wasn't that didn't that didn't happen yet. So I was like, if you need somebody, let me know. Um, and he texted me back and he's like, I think we can do the anthem, and I I think let's get you over on the microphone. And so that's that's really why it happened. Um, because I just I I saw a need and jumped in, like you said, like you know, ready and willing.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, it's been it's been a massive value add to have you there. I really, it really has been. It really has been, man. Thanks, man. It has. Um, AJ, what do you got? What kind of questions did you have?

SPEAKER_03 26:11

You guys are answering all of my questions as I'm like coming up with them. Like, so how did you get into this thing? And then you know, we start connecting the dots, and then you like literally teed him up to tell the story on how he got involved in this. So um I'm gonna have to come up with some some new questions here. No, uh Drew, what what was your first impression of Vermont Clover that first game?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Well, I my my impression started before that. I just I I saw the posts and I saw the kind of the announcements of the first game, and I saw the announcement of of Brian as the coach. And I, you know, I know Brian really well, and he's a he's not only a good coaching reference and a you know, a person I've I know in that way, but we're good friends, and I really do think he's he's a really special coach. And so I was really pleased to see him taking that chance. Um, and I knew I and I was we spoke about it right away, and I knew how humbling it was for him, and I was just really excited for that part of it. But then I, you know, I read more about the mission. I talked to Shane a little bit, and because we've had you know, Shane and I having those coaching years, we spent a lot of time on buses. Um, he actually lived in my spare uh my spare rental for a little while during when he was you know trying to save some commuting time. Um, and so we know each other pretty well too. And so it was just I seeing the the idea coming to fruition was already really exciting for me. And then coming to see that first match, you know, I was a season ticket holder already, I was game on, it was, you know, I was ready to go. And um it I that first match just had such great energy, yeah, right? Like they played amazingly well that day. I don't know what it was, four or five nil. Um, and it was just a great, it just felt like a great start, and it just felt like a ton of opportunity. Um, and it just keeps growing. You know, now now there are maple creamies and you know, trucks on the sideline, and and you know, I'm I'm I'm there is a voice now, and that like just all the little things that need to come are are coming, and it's a process, it's not easy, but it's it's certainly worthwhile and it is certainly exciting. And I I was in Boston for the final with um with Emeralds, um, and that match is absolutely memorable. That was an incredible that was an incredible day. Um, and I was just sitting in the stands with a and with that day, I was with a former player who played with me at Newbury um in Boston. Um, and it was really cool to spread the the what we're doing to you know that generation of players. It's just it's an awesome opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

100%. Um you you've got some really deep roots in local Vermont soccer. So, you know, I in your own words, like what do you see Clover doing for the local Vermont scene?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Promoting it, uh, you know, propping it up. I I I what you know the the excitement around Vermont Green right now is palpable and it's really cool. Um, but it's that's very much a professional level thing, right? It doesn't have the the rooted connections to our community that that Clover does. And I think that's a really um a valuable but also really intelligent way to go about adding a team to this discussion is like there's a lot of talent. Um, and to give that talent a place to showcase is incredibly cool. And then also from a standpoint of all the coaches, you know, I see John O at every game, right? Obviously his son's playing, but it means a lot as a coach, especially at a you know in an NCA coaching mindset, that you've got places for your players to promote. We've got you've got a place where you're not just commit creating excitement around your program, which you absolutely are, but you can create excitement for your players and give them a pathway to something that's much bigger. And that's you know, that that's just incredibly valuable. And I think as Vermonters, from a playing standpoint, I didn't play here in high school, I came here as a college player. Um, but it's definitely um, it's definitely that that's that feeling of relevance is really important. And I think we do always have that kind of underdog mindset when we travel, you know, we're always trying to like put our stamp on things and and and and prove that we belong. You know, there's there's big soccer states that we're not considered one of those. But now that we're starting to think like that, it's awesome. And so why why not show the world how many quality players there are in this area? Um, and it's clearly working, right? Obviously, there's no doubt that this first season can show very clearly that we can do some great things, at least regionally. And and you know, I think to Chris's point, I think nationally is the next step, and I believe in that step. I believe that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Yeah, absolutely. Um, next question, I guess uh either of you could answer this. Um, what do you think you see from the booth that you know the the average person might not see from the stands?

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Uh I think we focus a lot on the substitutions, we focus a lot on making sure that we get the call right in regards to whether that was or was not an assisted goal and things like that. There's a little bit more discussion. Um, we we get a lot more ref um, we get a lot more knowledge of what's going on on the sidelines with the coaches and the interactions with the referees. Um that I it's so it's just a little bit more, you know, it's the it's the other sideline, right? It's the it's the it's the coaching mindset, it's the players mindset. Um we're we're chatting up that whole discussion, and it's it's different from being a fan, it's more involved, um, and it's it's it's more supportive. And I I for me from a coaching knowledge standpoint, it's really nice to just sit and call the game and not necessarily have I do have a personal stake in wanting to see the Clover win. Um, and I'm definitely um I'm trying to stay respectful and impartial, right? Um, but I'm definitely a fan and I'm definitely really excited when we score goals and really bumped when the other guys do, right? So uh it's it's um it's kind of it's awesome to have both. It's awesome to be involved and to and to really be trying to be professional about it and and to serve the game in a really positive way, but then it's also just really great to just be right there on the on the midfield stripe and um and right in the midst of it. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Yeah, I I I can imagine that you know you you do have a hard time of like keeping the clover energy down to a point where you can keep it equal for you know when you're calling goals for the other team. Yeah, you gotta you gotta sound equally excited.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

It's not equal. I I definitely I do ramp it up for our team.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

It's a home, it's a home team thing, and I think that's appropriate. It doesn't have to be, I'm not a journalist in this position, so it doesn't have to be fully impartial.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I I make sure that whatever I'm doing for both teams is respectful. I'm a hundred percent respectful of everybody, but I'm definitely ramping up things for for for our clover every time. That's that's definitely I I think that's my job, right? Is to to bring excitement um and to and to just kind of lend and create and maybe help the fans kind of connect with our side of the field and just um you know, bring them noise.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

You do a lot better of with the not wearing your clover emotions on your sleeve than I do. I'm like jumping up and down and high fiving and hooting and hollering when we score, and like you know, you're kind of tugging me in that direction constantly, too.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

You're like, come on, man, we're good.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

You can do it. And I do I do my best not to, but it's just you know, a goal is scoring a goal, and you know from playing scoring a goal is the best thing that's ever happened to you every time you do it, right? It's just the best time, and and we all remember all of them, yeah. That's right, that's right. I mean, maybe guys who I didn't score a ton, but maybe guys who score a lot forget something here and there.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

But I remember all of a lot for sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Yeah, me too, the dozen or so that existed, right? And the the other thing that's going on on the sideline that that on our sideline is the first of all, the interface with the referee and crew, like you see the guy in the middle and you think that's all that's going on, but it's really not. Like you got the official over there, yeah, and you got the guy on the you got the guy uh the AR one that's in front of our bench who's also relaying information and you know, and there's also the game within the game that's happening, right? Between the players going on, the different coaching staffs. Uh, there are times that also we are helping, you know, explain the rules, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

On Saturday when that was a a somewhat tense moment. I think it got diffused fairly quickly, but right there was a little bit of like you know, contention there.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Like what will happen with the with the overtime period in the in the cup game.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Yeah, I mean, we are the we are the we're not the final word, that's the referee, but part of our job is translating the different thoughts about what a thing is meant to be into what it's actually supposed to be, right? And you know, we're interfacing with the we're also interfacing with the with the TV broadcast because sometimes they're like, hey, we didn't catch who that was, who is it? You know, they're sending people down. So it's really we're kind of the hub of operations for all that stuff over there as the source of truth. And then when, you know, like when Joey's in there doing his media stuff too, like he's asking us questions about all the stuff. So we really are.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

I've only had one day where Joey was there too, but that was a really cool addition to the booth, and like getting off all of us talking together, I think is actually really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Oh, yeah, totally. Because you know, we all come at it with the same eyes, but also with different eyes too, right? Like Joey's eyes as a player, your eyes as a coach, and you know, event management person, my eyes as a coach, and you know, the the founder thing, and then the guys up in the booth. And you know, amongst all of us, we get it all right. And you think about too, like the extra time thing, they didn't have we didn't have a fourth official this past weekend, so you know, I'm I'm running down to to uh the AR one, Mukhtar, and like, hey Mukhtar, what do you think? And like he's communicating to the referee so that we can communicate that to the fans, right? So we're trying to get all the information we can, and they're like hand signaling what it's gonna be, and you know, then they're giving it to me, you know. And after the first time at the end of the first half, I went and asked him. The second half, he like gave me a look and then was like, Okay, it's gonna be this, and then off we go, and we kind of had it dialed. So it's it's really cool how much yeah, it looks like we're just sitting over there, right? Playing music and announcing stuff, but there's a real lot that's going on to try to create the best experience for not just the fans, but for the players as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:28

For sure. And like as as the subs pile up um and the announcements come and we get yellow card cautions and things of that nature. Like, I want to make sure the fans are involved with that. I want to make sure we announce things properly. Um, I it's it's definitely it's it gets hectic at times. Um, it's a great hectic, though. It's it's it's feeling like you're a part of that game and feeling like you're a part of what you guys are building, what we're building. It's it's it's a uh it's a really cool thing.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

So I I think we talk a lot on the show about you know how much Vermont is a soccer state and how much things have grown. In you know, for for both of you, like in your opinion, is are there areas where Vermont soccer could still grow? That's an interesting question.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah, I the one that I always jump to is infrastructure. We just like the infrastructure really doesn't exist in the way that it needs to. And I don't mean clubs existing, I mean actual physical infrastructure. Yeah, fields there aren't enough fields to be doing all the stuff that we could possibly be doing. And it's there's it's just a hard cap on how many teams you can have going at any given time. And because there's a hard cap, you know, the less of it there is basic economic supply and demand, the less of it there is, the more expensive it's gotta be. And that, you know, people can get priced out. And I think looking at the scope of what the cost is uh, you know, nationwide for clubs, I think Vermont clubs do a really good job of keeping it inexpensive, even if it seems like it's really expensive. You know, you can go apples to apples on what's being offered for the same amount of money other places. And I think there's a lot of value for money, even though it is actually expensive. But with more infrastructure, those prices could come down even further, or for the same amount of money, you know, clubs could be offering even more kind of programming. We could do more league stuff. If we had a couple more turf fields, we could be playing 11 V11, you know, Germany style, where they just take, you know, January to February off, but we could be playing outside 10 months a year if there was more infrastructure.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I, you know, I spent, you know, my the beginning of my collegiate coaching journey was in Massachusetts, and the club structure down there is pretty robust to say the least. And a lot of the facility stuff that we deal with down there is club financed, right? Like a lot of the stuff there's big facilities that are being built by the clubs themselves now. Um, FC Stars has a has a really big facility down there. Um the the the big facility around Lemonster is really massive, and there's a lot of other stuff going on. And it would be interesting to see if that's something we can do. Obviously, tree farm is an example of that in in Vermont, but those are tricky conversations. Um, and those are very tricky financial discussions for sure. But it would it would definitely be that's that's definitely a place for growth for sure. Um, but I think what you're doing and what what Clover is doing is also a place where that's a really neat opportunity for growth there too, right? And I think that's I'm I'm I'm psyched to see it begun. Um, I'm psyched to see the the tiering that's happening now with with Vermont Green and Vermont Clover. And I I just I just feel like there's a real opportunity and it's and it's being capitalized, I think, intelligently. And I it's it's awesome to see.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Uh yeah, I'm thinking about the tier thing. So when we go to premiere next year, that's actually the same level as right. So UBSL Premier and in USL too, uh they're different, and we this has come up a couple of times. They're different, but they're the same informal tiers, right? So US soccer officially identifies three tiers, one, two, and three, right, without going into all that. And then the fourth tier is unofficially, but it's all the competitions that happen nationwide and have a national championship, right? So USL two, UPSL premiere, and there's some other ones too. But that's the same level, which is pretty wild. And you know, they're trying to the way that they're approaching being competitive nationally is by trying to get you know the absolute what they think is the absolute best talent they can into Vermont, like bringing it in for the season and and housing it and you know, sending it back home after it's done. And we're gonna approach that problem in like the exact opposite way. It's like, what if we can just use Vermont kids to try to be as competitive nationally as they are? And that and I think it's gonna be really fun over the next couple of years to watch that go because the level of USL too, which is basically just a college summer league, right? And no shade to it, this is what it is. UPSL is not like that's not what their model is. And and the top tier of both of those is like really truly excellent. For sure. And I think it's gonna be really exciting to see how we're able to compete with that top with those top tier, you know, first of first UPSL premier regional teams, and then once we make that jump into the national, the national competition. I think it's gonna be really fun to watch that all develop.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

I mean, it already is. I mean, Hardford Athletic the other day, that's a that's an example of you know a team that's kind of messing in both places, and it's and obviously we're very competitive that day, and there's uh more of that to come. And so I so I agree with you. That's super exciting. Um, and I think that you're gonna continue to see it become more exciting. I also think that the more the word of mouth kind of gets around to all the players locally, both coming in collegiately and already here from a high school standpoint, the more interest you're gonna see, right? And the more in the more intrigue it'll be to be potentially on this roster and a part of what we're doing. Um, I I do feel like these players are gonna really kind of want this opportunity. And and I think this first year is a great litmus test, and I think it's a very successful litmus test, and I think you're gonna see the excitement grow. I I'm I'm I'm really excited to see what the next couple summers bring.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah, me too. I I think you know, just knowing the greater Vermont player pool and knowing our player pool, I'd say we probably have like 80 to 85 percent of like the top, top players that we would identify as part of our pool, if that makes any sense. Yeah, and so I think the biggest area of growth from a you know sporting perspective, to use the fancy English term, I think the biggest area of growth is being able to create an environment where we are a club of choice for that top, you know, 15 to 20 percent of guys. So rather than staying wherever they're at college and playing on the USLT team or UPSL team there, they want to come home for the summer or guys that are you know choosing to you know train other places, they want to play, they want to actually play with us. And and and I think that's gonna be a big not a not a big challenge, but I think it's gonna be a fun challenge to solve is how do we create an environment where it is it is desirable for those top top guys, and they see that as like the right outlet for them when they're not playing with their college teams and post-college too, which is a cool opportunity we have is to keep guys going, you know, Michael and Sean and and those guys.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Right, who are past their who are done with their collegiate career and still playing at a very high level, right? And that's it's yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Yeah, and how do we and and and the other thing that's really exciting is you know, how do we develop that next generation of top-tier coaches, whether it's with us or with other people, because a lot of those guys that want to coach are guys that also want to keep playing at a high level, right? So how do we work with you know, the how do we work with the clubs and with the guys in our in our player pool to be able to to be able to kind of continue to to build that talent pool?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Yeah, there's a couple of exciting developments. I think the sporting Vermont, is that correct? The that's that's a really nice the the the kind of the ODP evolution. Um I coached ODP for a number of years here, and it was always it was always kind of like, man, I wish we could have everybody and really show, right? Um, and it I feel like that's starting to come around, and I feel like the support is there, and I think the sporting move is a really good idea. I think that what you're doing now plays into that, and there's another tier there. And so it's it's the possibility is there, and I think it's been there for a long time. And I think the players that like yourself and myself that that have been through this this discussion for a lot of years and have been in this environment for a lot of years, I think we've known this for a long time. I think we've known and wanted to prove it for a long time. And I I I personally am not at all surprised that we're seeing this kind of growth and this kind of uh, I don't know, you know, just kind of knowledge of the fact that there's a lot of really great quality soccer going on in the state. That um I'm not personally surprised, but I'm we're seeing it take a national turn. And it's I it's just really, really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Yeah, and I think the roof is has always been there. If you look at some of the teams that have gone out of the region to compete at the national level, they've been really successful. Like some of those early synergy teams, there have been Far Plus teams over the years, and even if you start talking about guys our age, uh I can't remember who was doing it, but it was like the Vermont select thing or or whatever that was called, where you know he he collected 20 of the best guys and they would go play all over the place. And and they were very, very competitive. And you even see it now. You know, Far Pust has a girls' team that um was at the the State Cub championships that missed the I think they lost in the semifinals nationally or something like that. So it's quality, it's tons of quality, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Well, uh, gentlemen, as we wrap up the episode, I would like to remind our listeners to head on over to vermontclover.com. You can check out the roster, all the players, the folks behind the team, uh, take a look at our partners, the upcoming schedule, buy some tickets, head to the shop, get some swag, learn more about this podcast, and uh even head on over to the YouTube channel, check out video versions, and see past recorded games. All that stuff really helps out. Uh, Drew, you mentioned earlier you're a little bit of a musician. Uh, do you want to plug anything that you do before we sign off?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

I'm a horrible self-promoter, but I've I'm doing a better job of that for sure. Um, yeah, so I I'm I go and I play solo shows and I play in a trio called Steep Creek Frenzy. We'll be at the Elmore store on Friday this Friday from uh 5 to 7.30. It's gonna be beautiful weather. That's gonna be a really fun show. My my uh bandmate Lucas and I will be playing Moog's Place on Sunday uh evening. Um, and you can always kind of check out Andrew LaFrenne's music on either Facebook or Instagram, and there's always some kind of content up there involving original music. I I love making the music I make. Um, it's an outstanding hobby and passion of mine. And uh yeah, so always happy to share that stuff. So check out the channel.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

So you can check it out. Drew, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Thanks for having me. All right, Chris, send us out.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Alrighty, ladies and gentlemen, I have been Chris George, and you've been listening to the Pink and Green Podcast. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

That's gonna do it for today's episode of the Pink and Green Podcast. A huge thank you to our guests for joining us and sharing their story. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. It helps more people discover the growing soccer community here in Vermont. You can follow Vermont Clover FC and the Pink and Green Podcast on social media for updates, match coverage, and behind-the-scenes content throughout the season. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. Until then, keep supporting local soccer and keep the game growing.