SPEAKER_00 1:05

Welcome to the Think and Green podcast. I am AJ Murray, and this is Chris George. Chris, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 1:12

AJ, I am living my best life, my absolute best life over here. I really am. I really am. You also have been living your best life recently.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yes. Yes, I have.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

I and this is the strange thing for me is since we met each other officially in like January or December, we see each other every couple of days, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

I think the last week or so is the longest that I've gone without seeing or talking to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, likewise. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

And it I was like, I'm missing my AJ.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

That's funny. I I had that same thought halfway through the week last week. I was uh in Vegas for work and I was just like, okay, kind of miss talking to Chris. This is different.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

You're the only one who's ever said that.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

I doubt that. I doubt that. That's funny.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Want to introduce our guest?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yeah, I do. Uh our guest today is O.C. John O'Connor. He's the head coach for the Women's Premier Soccer League team Vermont Wild. He's also the technical director of coaching for Summit Football Club down there in the Rutland area. And he's the head coach for the men's soccer team there at Castleton. John, welcome to the show. I hope I got most of that right.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

You you did, and I I appreciate you having me on. There's been a good laugh so far.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

So we've practically already recorded the show. Now we just gotta record the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah, I think you got some good stuff there.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

So yeah, it's good. What people, what it didn't make it in its way into the intro because I derelicted in my duties is that OC's been here for a little while, and he is kind of a little bit of a legend in Vermont soccer because of some of the work that he's done. You use you're a technical director for a minute, right? For uh the Vermont ODP program or Vermont Soccer Association.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah, yeah, I was doing a lot with uh coaching education and you know, working alongside Dave Sayward, you know. So um yeah, so it's been it's been great. It's been 13 years. It's crazy to think it's been 13 years I've been here. And um, you know, it's uh it's been uh it's been a good ride so far.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

So yeah, we're really the state of Vermont is really lucky to have you because most of your experience before here, or basically all of it, was at much, much higher levels than or what we'd consider higher levels at University of Chicago and and URI and places like that. Can you just for the listener, do you want to share a little bit about your background?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yeah, no, I I you know I um yeah, I've I've spent uh pretty good 30-year career, and I've been very, very fortunate to be, you know, at some really good programs, but also around a lot of good people. Um, you know, I was I was really fortunate early on in my career to to latch in at Dartmouth as an assistant, you know, and um, you know, I've always been coaching a little bit, but not, you know, not at college coaching. And um, so I really got a great opportunity at Dartmouth uh early on. I'd say in my young career, but I was actually in my late, late 20s or so, um, with Bobby Clark, uh, who's a legend in college soccer. And um, you know, so Bobby gave me a good, really good start. And um, you know, to and then and then you know, from there I was uh I was lucky, you know, a lot of good players around, uh, a lot of good mentoring. And Bobby's still a really uh a good mentor for me. And we we connect, you know, use usually weekly. Um he's back in Scotland, but um, but yeah, and then I was off to the University of Chicago for 11 years, um, built a program there. We were bottom of the UAA at that time, and we we built the team up into a a contender, and you know, lucky luckily to be in the NCAAs a couple of years and uh got to the final four one year, um, which we did really well. And and then I had a tremendous opportunity to come back to the East Coast to go to URI and coach, you know, with Division I, which is something I always wanted to do. Um, and and not necessarily for the Division I status of it, but more so for the contact with the players, just having as much contact as I could um with the players during the year. That's something that I really, really uh relish. And uh it's the reason why I do this. So um, you know, so yeah, so it was a it was a good, a good little run there. Um, you know, I had some great players. Jeff Cameron, who played in the national team, played for me for two years after he transferred, and you know, we got to see Jeff develop and had a quite a few players um you know that that moved on to professional soccer. And um, and then you know, after that, you know, division one's tough, you know, you don't win games and it's and it's it's a tough road. So, you know, I just ended up coming up here for family reasons and also because of Castleton was uh recommendation. My college coach um was the the um commissioner of the league at that time, the the NAC, and uh guy named Jim Dyer. And I just uh, you know, he said it was a great place. Uh president was super nice, Dave Walk, um, athletic director Diane Tyson was great. And so, you know, it was just a perfect place for us to kind of bring our young family at that point. With my wife, uh, you know, was in aquatics and had been a swim coach for 20 years, but now she's just you know running the pool and doing things. So it was just like a perfect perfect atmosphere in some way. And and I knew a lot of people in Vermont because obviously, because of being at Dartmouth and I knew Day Sabird really well, and you know, Jesse up at UVM and and and quite a few people. So um, yeah, so it's so it's been good. It's it's been good, you know. It's uh it's uh you know, coaching is coaching, and you know, this opportunity with the with the wild, you know, and came back to us with the fusion. So I've all a lot of different stuff in here, um, which has been fun for me. And you know, obviously my my kids develop into the game too. So that's been that's been a big part of it, you know, for me personally.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

So John, um, I I want to go back a little bit. How did you get into coaching?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Well, you know, I honestly started coaching when I was in high school. So I had a friend of mine and I uh started coaching in what was the Boston area youth soccer league at that point, so very different than club soccer. Chris, you probably remember a little of that, but it was really town teams. And my friend and I just started coaching a U-12 team, his brother. And um, you know, we kind of I think we probably puppeteered our our high school coaches uh, you know, way of doing things. And you know, I just got into it there um to start, you know, and then in college it was about like working camps and I and I started like meeting people, and I think you know, in college in coaching, networking is such a huge thing, part of it, you know. Sure. So I just I just started like finding opportunities. Really, it was opportunities to be able to play in the summer too, you know, because you're at these camps where there's a lot of good players, um, but also learning about the game. And I felt like it it kind of opened my eyes a lot to to myself as a player, you know. I had I had some penny dropping moments, you know, uh along the way, you know, in just playing by by coaching, you know. So I felt like that was a a really great part of it. And, you know, and and then you know, what once I had finished in grad school, and I I went I played at the University of Maine, and um, again, I had not really good mentor there, Jim Dyer. And um, but you know, Maine, Maine uh since then has dropped their men's soccer program, which is a little bit sad. Um yeah, but I but I started coach just coaching. I coached a little bit at uh when I was in grad school, just kind of as a uh uh volunteer assistant with with Jim Dyer. And then I was coaching in the high school level um for a little bit in Orno. Um and then, you know, it I I I was in housing at that point. That was kind of looked like my path. My path was like residential life. I was director of a dorm, you know, and I got a really good job at Dartmouth, actually running their their whole residential program at that point. Um, but I missed, I was coaching, I was coaching in the Upper Valley Lightning Club in that area, but I missed, I missed like the upper level coaching. So I just kind of fell, honestly fell into the college coaching. You know, Ralph Farinho, who had happened to be the assistant at Dartmouth at that time, left to go to Tufts to become the head coach. And then I was able to kind of step into that position. Um, but I've been surrounded by a lot of good players. I mean, I was talking about Bobby Clark and Steve Swanson, who's the head coach at the University of Virginia now. Um, you know, he was uh the head coach at Dartmouth at that time. We were good friends, and so I really was able to latch on to him and through other people, you know, just along the way, you're just meeting really good people, you know, um learning some things. And and I I just loved the interaction with the players and um, you know, just it it it all fit for me in what I was doing. I had an education background, but but but really it was um you know, college coaching just seemed to me to be the the the root, you know. And uh so yeah, I got that little path early and then and then uh everything just kind of fell my way. And I I I'm a big believer in fate, to be honest with you. And uh so I I think all this there was a lot of fate in what was happening, you know, in the places I were and the people I met. And you know, um, and even where I am now, I think there's a lot of fate in in you know me ending up here at Castleton. So so it's been it's been a good ride so far. So I'm not ready to finish, though. My wife would kill me. She would kill me if I stopped coaching. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Now you finally got kids out of school, right? So you can like do you can like have a little bit of your time back instead of having to chase that around, right? The thing that I think it's different now, but you remember this is the the college coach hustle used to be like you make a couple grand for the season, right? Like not much, like you make a couple thousand bucks for all the time spent. And in the winter, it's like, okay, figure it out. And in the summer, every week you're doing a camp somewhere, or as many as you can get, because that's how you're actually getting paid. You know, you're making the same in a week or two as you would make in your whole fall season. And while you're doing it, it's like all the other assistants, like that's the staff, right? We used to go to, we used to work for Nash at Bucknell for a long time. And and that's like all the guys that are also assistants or like new head coaches, and like that becomes your kind of like peer cohort as everybody goes along, you know, and you're spending time like right next to each other working and you're hanging out, and you know, maybe you're going out after sessions a little bit every once in a while, and and that was a hustle. It's like Bucknell, and then you're at wherever, and then you're wherever, like as many weeks in the summer as you possibly can, and then you're super excited for the fall, and it's like, okay, winter comes around, hope you have a job, figure it out. And guys coach, and and guys are coaching, you know, guys are coaching uh at clubs too. So like when you start doing the math on how many games you get in a year that you're actually coaching, I mean you're coaching 50, 60, 70 games a year because you're doing a couple of club teams to make that money work, and the l the smallest amount of actual game coaching is happening like during your proper season. Right. Because you're coaching 15, 18, 20 games, right? Right. And but you're getting that in like three weeks at your club. And then it's really great.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah. No, it's it's it's an interesting thing because I think you know, nowadays how things have changed so much. Even you know, when I started at Chicago, I had an assistant coach that was fifteen hundred dollars. Um, that's what he got. And so is like a grad student or someone in the area, you know, now division three is full-time assistants. You know, one of my former players here, Tommy Kirk, is is the assistant at the University of Chicago now. You know, he's making he's making 50 grand, you know, as an assistant at Division III, you know. And so I think you see that development has changed so much in in and the importance of the game, obviously, is made a difference. And um, but yeah, it's it it was a tough, it's somewhat a tough go, you know. At Dartmouth, I was I was my money came from being the director of coaching for lightning soccer. That money was donated to the college, the college paid me from that. So, you know, you are spending probably in an inordinate inordinate amount of time with the club soccer, but that is the reason why you're able to be the you know the full-time assistant, you know, um, you know, for Dartmouth. And um and it was believe me, it was a easy trade-off, easy trade-off considering the environment that I was in at that point, and it kind of just set me set me in the right direction, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

So yeah. And and and I guess that's the other thing, too, is 20 years ago, like none of these jobs were full-time. Like they're even big schools that like they weren't full-time. You know, and I can think of a lot of programs that are really successful that it like while these guys are winning or competing for national championships, they're part-time. They're part-time because they're teachers at the school, or they're not like soccer was always a secondary thing, right? Or they're like the double head coach thing, like Anson was like back in the day, where he was like head coach of the lacrosse team in the spring and head coach of the soccer team in the fall, right? Which is wild to think about. I mean, it's only relatively recently that this guy who's a legend, like on the Mount Rushmore of coaches, right, is like full-time doing it, right? Which is a crazy thought. They I think about other things too that we all did. It's just different now. It's probably a little better now with the balance and things like that. But you know, you can't change. What is um so to clover a little bit, like what's your connection to Clover?

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Well, obviously, Michael, you know, that's that's it, you know, my my son, you know. So uh, you know, Michael's uh one of the first things that you know he found when when the clover is coming into uh being, you know, um, was that was something he wanted to do and and play, you know, and he wanted to continue, continue, you know, part of his game. Like I I I said to him, I played, I played until I was 50, you know, in leagues and stuff. And uh, you know, I think he's one of those guys. Uh he and Sean Butler, the same, you know, both played for me here and best buddies too in Vermont. So, you know, that that that was such an exciting opportunity that I saw. And obviously, I I know it's important for the state of Vermont, but like from my my personal part of it, it it's just exciting to be for me to be able to go and just watch my kid play, you know. Um, the other day we were at a game and some of the wild kids are up watching the game, and you know, I was just kind of staring out into the field, and one of them turned to me and said, What's that look? And I said, I'm just watching my kid play, I'm just enjoying it, you know. So I think that that that was such a great, great thing for him and um you know, for him to enjoy it. Our whole family, my wife and you know, my daughter, you know, being able to get to see him play and continue to love the his love for games. So um, yeah, so that's the big connector and you know, season ticket holder, you know. So important for to do that too, to support the club and and support him, what you you guys are doing as a as a as a group, you know. So it's really important, really important for for us for for the kids in Vermont for sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

So yeah, the other connection is that you were one of the very first people I talked to when I was when I had it in the hopper of like, I think I'm gonna like I'm thinking about this. I I don't remember it was it was in August, like it was early in the season when we were talking about like scheduling that game, and I was like, I'm thinking about doing this thing. What do you think? And you were like, Well, Michael would definitely do it, and there's definitely and there's a couple other guys here who would do it. I think it's a great idea. I came away from that conversation thing and Wolfosi, who's pretty smart about things, thinks this is a good idea. It's probably a good idea, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

And yeah, yeah, no, I I I think from the top, I mean, the opportunities that kids get, and and I and the other part too is like whether purposeful or not, like latching on to what was happening in Vermont at the time, you know, like UVM wins the national champions, USL2 championship, you know, there's there's all this going. Women the women's team at at UVM was in the in the final of their their conference championship, you know. So there's a lot of these things going on. And um I thought the timing was ridiculously good, you know. So hats off to you that that the timing is there for all you guys because I I think it just added to the environment, you know. Um, and I was excited. Like I I mean, selfishly, I'm excited for my players who are here because there are guys that you know every year now will have an opportunity to be able to stay around Vermont and be able to play competitively. And they were playing in Elite 11, and that's fine, you know. We it's great to get games, but but the fact is that they have a chance to be able to play at a really good level. And and for some guys, training at the that level will be as important as as playing, you know. So um so yeah, no, it's it's it's it's a it's a great thing. So I'm um extremely happy. You know, I'm extremely happy for you guys and the success, but I'm extremely happy for the fact that it it works out well for us, for us, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

So yeah, totally. And it's uh it's kind of always meant to serve it's it's just meant to be like a rain shower watering the grass, right? And I honestly I can't take any credit for the timing. I was completely oblivious to like all that stuff. I mean, I knew it was going on, but I didn't think about it like, oh man, we gotta get on here while the timing is right, because I just didn't enter my mind. And and I know that that sounds unbelievable, but it really is true. It was really just about, and this was in another one of the podcasts. It was really about Trey coming to my house that day or calling me that day and saying, Hey, what do you think about this thing? And then me just being like, look, if we wait a year, it's not gonna happen. Like we just need to do it now. And the wild coming in too is is like that's another like really awesome part of this patchwork. I think that I think the player pool, the way that the wild is doing things, the way that Green is doing things, the way that we're doing things, they're all the way that we're approaching it is all different enough that there's plenty of space for all of it. And I think that that's a really, really cool thing for just generally Vermont soccer, but more specifically those players in let's say 18 to 25 kind of range.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Yeah. I I completely agree with that. I mean, I I've I've said that a lot all along, you know, is this you know every one of us for for whether men or women have have a unique look at where they want to what they want to do, right? So, you know, the kids that want to stay, or Chittenden County kids or whatever it may be that want to stay around and play at a good level, then they they they have an opportunity for those kids that want to come down with us for a month and a half or you know, two months and be housed together and do all that together, that's a different opportunity, you know, for them. You know, um, you know, Heather Henyon, you know, the the owner of the wild, I mean, she's she's put money where her mouth is, you know. I mean, she's she's got internships available, you know, the housing is has been great. Um, you know, so it's it's it's a different one. And then obviously the green have the green, you know, and and so so I think they are. And and and I in in some ways envision, I think you and I have talked about this a little bit, envision the fact is like there may be players, there are players from the green that that they gave us to, you know, as we were trying to build a roster, kids that they were not interested in, and we explored that with those players. So there's I think there can be a relationship there, you know what I mean? So where where the players can can you can almost like you know trade trade off some players that maybe they're not gonna be, you know, what you want maybe positionally or whatever it may be. And now you can say, hey, look, there's another opportunity here. Let me let me give you that, you know. Um, and that and just happened with the green, just happened with the green. They they had approached us about uh their backup goalkeeper from Syracuse trying to get some games because Shippy is obviously really good and you know, she's playing all the time. And and you know, they called us about trying to get games with us. And unfortunately at that point, we had four goalkeepers, you know, and I I can't bring a fifth in, you know. Um, and then the week after the Syracuse kid is off on trial somewhere, and they're calling us about trying to get a goalkeeper to be their backup, you know. So so there's a relationship to be had, you know, um, and a positive relationship, you know, it's it's not it's not this at all, which I think is is really good for for our state. And I think other places you're gonna see uh, you know, a competition level between the clubs that probably is not healthy, you know, with that. And but I think we've got a really healthy environment to to be able to help promote the game and um and also give kids opportunities, you know, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, absolutely. The more that we can all work together to be good neighbors is really good. For at the end of the day, who does it really benefit? And it's the players, right? Like if we're at odds, the people that end up losing out are the players, right? The girl from Syracuse or the girl who might have an opportunity over there, as you know, goalkeeper number two, who's not gonna play, but can go up there and be goal number two, goalkeeper number two of two rather two rather than two of four, right? So that kind of helps goalkeeper number three and four, right? More than it helps her. So the more that the more that we all work together collectively, the better it ends up for the players. And at the end of the day, you alluded this to this a little bit. Why I coach, why you coach, I think too, is really it's really about the kids. And I call them kids, even though these are adults we're talking about in a lot of cases. It's really about them and you know, building relationships with them and and being able to be some semblance of a positive role model for them, right? You know, show them what's possible. And I appreciate I really have appreciated Heather's kind of where she's at from a how we're gonna position the team from like an ethical perspective and like and and just really being focused on the women's game. And like that's a core thing. I couldn't imagine that she ever would want to do a men's team associated with the wild because that's not the brand. And I really like that too. Whereas we're over here, we're like, yeah, we just want Vermont kids, we got to do women because there's plenty of women too, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Right. No, I I think Heather Heather has taken the the right perspective of you know, kind of where where fusion started, the organ origins of fusion was really to to kind of promote the women's game, you know. Um, I mean, that was part of Chris Chapbledain's, you know, push, and I think it was part of the fusion president and vice president at that point, um, Eric and Sarah. And you know, I think that's always been the big part of it. I think what what Heather has brought Brought in has been the perspective from her, from her own perspective of, you know, a woman leading like a major company, right? So what does it take for her to be able to do those things? And sustainability has been important. I know it's you know thrown around a lot, but but she wants the club to be a long-term, you know, investment. Um, and not investment for her, but investment for the community. You know, that that's the the big piece. So, you know, all those things. And I think that's a little the reason why, you know, things were a little slow to start is because you know, she wanted it right. She's she's a she's a type A, she wants things right, she wants the visual right. And the visual is really good right now. Um, and now, you know, we just have to back it up with a little bit with a little bit more of the play, you know. So, but I think she she's got a good perspective. Um, you know, she's a collaborative person too, which is nice to be able to talk to someone without you know the push and pull. You know, she's she's not she doesn't she doesn't push in on the coaching at all, doesn't question anything, doesn't question players. So I mean that's it's almost like a joy of an owner, you know what I mean? So not having anybody that's that's that's you know, kind of kind of invading when in in the places. And I don't do it in the and I don't do it on the other side either, you know. Um, so so I think I think it's been a really good setup so far. And I I I I I see longevity for the for the club for sure.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

So I mean that's how a good relationship should work with like ownership, coaching, staff, management staff. It's like we got all good people, let's just trust each other to do the right things, right? And I do appreciate that kind of more slow, kind of planned approach. Like we're just a bunch of dumb soccer coaches who decided to do a team up here, right? And so we're like, yeah, grip it and rip it. We'll figure it out as we as we go along. And I think you can see in some of the stuff that we're doing, it definitely feels a little bit like that, right? Whereas you can see like the kind of that more kind of planned, like you can see that the progression is like it's like kind of happens at a different pace, yeah with what you guys are doing, which is really good, right? Like you know what you're doing, and from a you know, coaching perspective and recruiting perspective. So like year one's always gonna be year one, right? And that's the that's really the platform for year two and year three and year four and year five. As long as you get year run, year one mostly right-ish, it's all gonna sort itself out.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yeah, I think so too. And you know, I think you know, there's been a lot of lessons we've learned along the way, little things that you we've forgotten, you know, and now we're kind of getting them. And they and um I think that you know, that kind of having that checkoff list of of what made it made six successful is uh really works works well with the team, you know. Um, and I think it will attract players um, you know, sooner than later and uh keep things on a really even keel. I mean, I mean we're all competitive too. Like, you know, one of the I think for all the players and for myself, we want to be more competitive. We want to you want to win games and you wanna you want to be in games and and and those and and yeah, we are we have that, but um, but I think when it comes down to it, you know, some of the experience of other players and of the teams in the league right now, just you know, overshadow our our our some of our players, you know, in the big moments. And so that just takes a little experience and and maybe even going through this experience right now will will will add to that for them and they'll be able to be more prepared um you know down the road. So yeah, no, it's it's it's it's good. And and as I said, Heather Heather's done a super job with it and really engaging the community. And you know, back back in the days of fusion when John O'Keefe was the town manager, you know, he he kind of played that role of the of a Manchester engager, right? Because he was the town manager, and and now Heather's kind of taking that on as owner and and and kind of on that part too. So that that's the piece we that I think when John left we were missing. So yeah, so happy, happy with it. Hope to hope to win a couple of names, games down the road here.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

So uh you guys will, right? Like you guys know. I there's no doubt.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

We have a tough one this Saturday. The rogues uh from Rhode Island are traditionally a good team. They went to the quarterfinal or they went to semifinal a few years back, the year after we went to the quarterfinal. So they've they've got some good players, you know. I think sometimes with the WPSL teams, as I'm sure you find with the UPSL too, is you know, who travels, you know, how who travels well, you know what I mean? Like sometimes teams would show up with 12 players, sometimes so it'll be really interesting to see, especially with a little bit of weather coming this weekend, you know, whether the rogues show up with 18 like they're supposed to, or they should, or do they show up with 12 because you know they get four or five that don't want to travel that day, four hours, you know. So we'll we'll see how that how that rolls in. But we can take advantage of that. I'm happy to do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

So yeah, it's a roll of the dice, right? We one of the reasons that we've been successful, as successful as we have, is because we travel real well, right? Our guys, I mean, our guys are willing to bite the bullet on a five-hour ride, you know, and truthfully. And and other teams don't travel nearly as well, right? For them, and for us, I think it's just because and you probably experienced this as well. It's like we're in Vermont, like we expect we know going in that every away game is going to be a real hassle, right? To get to. So we're kind of have that in the back of our mind because we're so geographically isolated. Everybody else that comes to play us, that's their one long ride of the entire season. And like people, I mean, the the amount of family commitments that tend to jump up on a game you got on a long ride coming, you know, they kind of multiply, right? So that's not to say that that's the reason that we've won the games we've won, but it doesn't hurt. It it'd like there is a massive home field advantage that we have when that a lot of the other teams we play against don't really have. Because no one from Boston cares about going to Rhode Island. It's an hour and a half, right? Or an hour. So they don't care. Like, but they do care about driving to Vermont because that's four hours away.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

I also think I think sometimes that kind of stuff is it's funny because it happens, you know, in the college game too, is you know, when we have, you know, UMass Dartmouth coming up here or Rick, you know, they're coming four hours, and and and you either embrace it or you don't, right? You know, um, you you let it be a uh anchor around your neck and you hear it, you know, like from the sidelines. I hear it from some of their players, you know, from the other teams that come in. And that's that is a huge advantage for you because I think they're like, uh, it's Vermont, I've come so far. And then they just it's an anchor around their neck, right? And it's holding them down from being able to play and be able to compete. Um, and I and I think that's you know, that's a mentality, right? So if we know, you know, and we know we're gonna always travel, minus going to Albany. You're gonna travel three, four hours for a game. It it's it shouldn't be it shouldn't be a uh a problem, you know. It's just expected. It's expectation that's in there. Um, you have to prepare that well. And um, I can tell you that Michael's always one of the things he says about the rides is great is he gets to know the guys on his team well, you know, and they enjoy that. They enjoy that. They have fun. I try to call him after the game sometimes to talk to him about the game. And he's like, Dad, I can't talk right now. I'm you know chatting with the guys. So I'm like, all right, I just got the heisman from my kids. So um he'll talk to me later about it. But but yeah, he's he I think even the rides are enjoying it. It's like a bus ride in the college game, you know. So um, so I think that's that's you know, kind of a a side side plus in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

So yeah, those some of those are the best moments. There's a picture that was getting shared around, and I don't remember where it was, like in a group chat or whatever, of I it was one of our first games in Maine. It wasn't the very first one because we took a bus to that, but it was one of the games in Maine. And so Michael and Sean and a couple of the high school guys, and there's three of there's five of them in this car, right? And it's like the two high school guys are up in the front because one of them was driving, and then Michael and Sean are like riding in the backseat. I think Sean was in the very middle, but like, you know, it's just like you like you got the oldest guys on the team shoved into the back, like behind these high school kids. And it's like we're having a great time.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

It's like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

I mean, you can't replace those moments. Like you just can't replace those moments, I don't think. Um, and people think that the experience is about playing the games. And it is, right? Like that's the thing that gets you there. But the real experience of college soccer or any college sport or playing in a you know, semi-pro kind of setup like we're doing with these young men and women, it's really about the time spent together.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Oh, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I mean, that's part of my a lot of my memories is is is just experiences you've had with with these kids. And you know, they're they're not always the happiest experiences, you know, things happen in these things, but but they share them together, you know, and and if you you can be, you know, a part of that, you know, I I I think it just to me, it just adds to what they're doing, you know. Um you know, I've I've I've had some kids, you know, that's been the worst of times, you know, like I had a player at Chicago whose parents were both killed in a car accident. You know, and I had to I had to go. I traveled to Montana to to to go be with him. He's an only child, you know. Oh my gosh. And and that and that's a terrible part of it, right? But you know, it's also a connection that I have with with this player now that I'll have for the rest of my life, you know, and um, you know, in a tragic situation. And then you have obviously have the happy ones too, but but I think all these things they they just help help build, you know, the the character of the kids and and our own character, our own own humanity, and and how how you know it's a game for sure, but but really it's the experience that they're having around it and you know, develop them as people, you know, and um you know that's I think why I've I've loved it so much is because of the fact that you know I see them, you know, I I go to their weddings later, I see them have kids, you know, you know, all this kind of stuff. And you know, there's a really something to be said about, you know, my brother was a banker for his whole career. He he wasn't his co-working, he wasn't hanging with his co-workers who, you know, were having we're having kids, you know. It just wasn't there. So he had a different experience than I did. So um, you know, I I I just think I think you're right. I think the the whole thing about outside of what what happened actually happens um you know, is is really the value and the the I don't know if we'll call it the the key, but it was the really the value of of of their experience together for sure. So yeah, it's a it's a it's a great one. It's a great one. And it's a lot of good stories. A lot of good stories.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yeah, most of which are not fit for public consumption.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

No, no, I think I think some are not for sure, but but there's some good stories to be able to to be able to wrangle back into something that that that it is important, you know. Um whether it's helping a kid deal with something that's going on or or or trying to make an example in a game or practice of something, but you have all these stories to draw from, you know. So I fear I'm turning into my father sometimes because I tell the same stories quite over over and over again, but but but that's that's life, you know. So if they're good, I'm gonna tell them again.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

So I'm embrace I'm embracing it, right? And I love telling the stories of my guys because it makes me feel good. And and then like I feel that connection to them, even though it's years later, right? And one of the and we all have these things that are like core program stories, right? And and and we tell these over and over and over again because okay, a guy who's been there for four years may have heard this story a dozen times, but that guy on the first day, his freshman year, or whenever, and we're not just telling them to tell them it's like it comes up in a moment and it's like, I need to tell you about this guy, and I need to tell you about this thing that happened that was real, and some of you guys know him because he's been around at alumni events, but like and the freshmen are maybe rolling their eyes until you know, a decade later, you tell that story about them then, right? Remember that guy on his first day.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

And I I think that honestly, the funny the funniest things that I that I get a kick out of is things that they tell me of things that I the things that I've done that I don't remember. They tell me, you know, about something I said or a phrase I use. There was a running joke for a long time. We had a really funny guy that played for me here, Charlie Cisneros. He's six foot four forward, super nice guy, and and just really, really funny, and just totally bought in, one of Michael's good friends. And but Charlie used to tell all these stories about things that I would say during practice, and I I don't remember that at all, you know, like be a funny phrase or or weird phrase or something. And I'm like, I never said that, Charlie. And they're like, Yeah, you did. And everybody else may, yeah, you did. You know, those are those are the ones, those are the ones I think that I have the I have such a good, good, funny memory with, you know, and and again, you know, if they're remembering that, it meant something to them, you know, um in some ways. So I I I think kind of cement your, you know, cement your your stamp on them and you know the impact that you're having on them as people, you know. Um, you know, I've been lucky here, you know. I I said this at our banquet, you know, one of the highlights of my my coaching career has been the fact that my son chose to come and play here. Um, you know, he had a lot of other opportunities he could he could have taken on. And um, you know, but I think that the fact that he wanted to come here and be in the environment that he was, he knew these some of the guys, obviously from you know, from growing up around here. But you know, you you when you have that kind of stuff that happens to you, it's uh it it definitely marks you, you know, in a positive way. And I, you know, it was a sad, it was a sad senior day. I would tell you that. I I had a I had a rough time. And I have rough times at senior day anyway, but but you know, having him. But but but again, now, you know, now I watch him again. You know, I get to I get to continue to watch him and and and and find the joy in the game. And you know, I think the Clover has was has prevented, you know, presented that for him and provided it for him to be able to continue to to develop. He'll become a better player more and more as as he gets out of school, because I feel like that's you know something that we all do in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

So yeah, by the time they're done with the college experience is really like if you look at the scale of like what everybody like where it's like where players are at, right? If we were to like throw the European model over top, like that's kind of decision time about like whether this is gonna be a real career for you or whether you're gonna have to go do whatever your backup was, right? In that like early 20s time. And think about like, you know, athletically, you know, peak is 26, 27, 28, right? So like you're a couple of years away from the athletic peak, and our game is not really about athleticism so much as it's about this thing, yeah. Which is so like you're pretty far away from your peak, like at 22 or 23, you're finally at the age where the game is starting to slow down and you're learn and you're really learning how to play.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Yeah, no, I I would agree with that. And and and you know, it's funny because you know, I've I'm obviously had some good players that have played me at Cameron. Cameron was, you know, probably the peak of that. But you know, I one of my GAs here, Michael Tankey, was played for me at URI, good player out of Indiana. If you had asked me, he would ever have been playing post-college, you know, he ended up playing for the Rochester Rhinos. And if it wasn't for injury, he probably would have played more. Head coach of Kenesius now. Um, you know, and and but that was a guy that because of his soccer brain, he could he could go to the next level. And because he wasn't the most gifted, he was very gifted technically, not most gifted physically, like athletically, but but his brain was so good that he could he could make other players better. Um, and yeah, I I uh it's an amazing thing to see see people where they where they finally finish up and end up, you know. And I've had some players around my career too that you know, like they start start here and then you know, I have them at Notre Dame working camp with me, and they're playing with the Notre Dame players, and I'm like they're comfortable, they're comfortable. And and if they had never played, starting here, right? Because if they've gone somewhere else and they're not playing or they're on the bench and just practicing, never been able to develop to themselves to get to where they want to go, you know. So so I think being in an environment where you can can you know be able to play right away, um, it has a benefit to it, you know. Um and and you definitely see that. Uh and you're seeing it a lot quite a bit in in the college game now with with the transfer portal and stuff where kids go in, they get a good, you know, good season under their belt, and then they're looking, they're looking somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

So um which I'm not I'm not saying that's the best thing in the world, but no, it's something that we don't like that and m probably at your level too, like that's not a thing that I really have to deal with so much, right? Because and it's probably the same for you. It's a real specific guy that I want to come because I really for me it's not exciting to bring in like lots and lots of guys. I like to have like a really targeted group of guys that I can kind of start that relationship building with over the course of their recruiting process, and then you know, we do this thing together. So, you know, my heart breaks a little bit every time somebody needs to leave for one reason or another, right? Yeah, but so it but it's also the level that we're at. Guys are not looking at that like, oh, I gotta go here because I have to go to the next level. It's just not who they are or what they want as players. But I I think about this too, like coaching makes you a better player. So for all the guys that are like, I'm having trouble like making that jump from like a couple of minutes here and there as a sophomore to like how do I get like to be one of the guys as a junior is like go coach the oldest players that you can because you learn so much because you gotta start thinking about the game.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Right. And there's something to be said for like, okay, come in and don't play much as a freshman, because really coming in as a freshman is like learn you gotta learn the actual game that's being played, right? And being comfortable with like, okay, I'm gonna take the minutes where I can get them and earn those minutes, right? Versus like now I can step into a larger role.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Very I'm I'm a byproduct of that. Like I was a byproduct of of how you know, coaching. When I started coaching out of college, I became a much, much better player just because of the focus on like doing the right things, making the right decisions, you know, all those things you're part of, you know. And yeah, we encourage, we encourage, like we have our guys here, and and you know, you know, some of the women with the wild are are you know doing some individual sessions and coaching kids and and things like that. And I I think that's a a bonus for them, you know, to do that because it just it just opens their eyes a little bit more. And you I found what I was happening with me is like my decision making became so much better because of the fact is what if one of those kids is on the sideline watching me play men's league and I'm making bad decisions. So how how does that, you know, how does that impact me? Or you know, they hear about this, you know, there here, there, you know. So so I I it it opened my eyes completely. And then and then when you do the same thing and you're playing, you're playing with better players, you know, like that's the crazy part for me too, you know, um is just seeing how they can they can affect you, you know, they can affect you, make you better. Um you know, and and even in recruiting, I I do that a lot where I'm watching, looking for the kid that's trying that makes everybody else around them better. You know, and uh I think that's a a big piece of it, you know, what's going on, but but the coaching part of it, I think. You know, my Michael, Michael coached, you know, he coached here at Summit. You know, he came and helped us with the wild and and uh helped with fusion too. And you know, I think that helped him to be a better, better player himself because of just the the kind of understanding of the tactical parts of the game and and uh and then and then being able to to do it at the same time, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

So yeah, there's a certain maturity that he communicates with on the field to the guys on the field that is like a a person who has coached a little bit, like saying the things that coaches would say sometimes, you know, right? Like, hey guys, like remember the situation. Like I find him saying versions of that a lot of times it'd like hey, game situation, like versions of that where it's like we're up one zero or two zero, like let's just we don't have to score, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Right, like you hear him say a lot. I hear him say you don't have to win it, right? Because a lot of kids want to go in and try to win every tackle, right? I'll tell you a funny story about him when he was little. You know, we we honestly, you know, when we were in Rhode Island and they my both of my kids were younger, we we did not push them into to playing on a team or anything until they asked they asked. They asked us to, and so they're playing with Cherhoe youth soccer, right? So this is down in southern Rhode Island, and Michael, I go to a game, and it was hard, but at URI was tougher to to kind of be see those because I was away a lot during the weekend games, but I happened to get to go to a game, and you know, they're playing three on three, mini goals, build out line. They've got the whole thing going on, right? And so the ball, they they let the team come out, the other team gets it, and they're they're now they're dropping back towards their goal. And I hear Michael say, keep their shape, keep your shape, keep your shape. And one of the mothers turns to me and goes, I don't think my kid understands what that means. And I said, I don't think he understands what it means. Just hears me saying, but he's like, you know, he's holding on to the post when he's on a corner, you know. You just see all these little things, and he's he saw all the Jeff Cameron's and uh and the rest of these guys doing, but you know, but you know, it's just it's just uh it's it's a byproduct of of the co hearing coaching, you know. So um yeah, I don't think stomach keeper's shape was until he was about 16.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

So no, it's uh it's it's like my daughters too, like they both have a pretty good game feel. Like we talk about this all the time, like kids who have good game feel, right? Like they tend to be in the right spots, whatever. And this is the benefit to being a coach's kid is you get dragged around a lot and you see a lot of soccer. And then the downside is that like you're a coach's kid, so like you're on this trip that ain't yours.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Like, oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

You know, and and and I Michael's a little your kids are a little bit older than mine, but this is a thing that I really try to be conscious about is like what are we, like, how are we around the game? Because they both love it. And and it was the same deal. It's like we never, I never said, Oh, you gotta go play soccer. When she was three years old, she was like, Dad, I want to play soccer. I'm like, cool, we'll do that now or whatever. And Fuzzy played GBGSL, uh, which is amazing. For those who don't know, Greater Burlington Girls Soccer League is unbelievable. It's like an all-girls wreck thing where they just put you on random teams, everybody's got a different color uniform, and it's really all about this like, let's have a fun experience as little girls together. And it is awesome. Like it's it's it's really awesome. And she had the best time, and then you know, she just wanted to keep playing. And Luna's the same way. She's like, Well, I don't know if I don't know if I know about sports, but like I want to play soccer, right? And so they they play and they have a good time. But now that Pussy's getting old, I'm trying to be really conscious about like the conversations we're having and who I show up as. Like, am I shown up as coach? Am I showing up as dad? Am I showing up as like crazy soccer parent or what?

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah. No, I get that. We had our we had our conversations early on, um, you know, with both Megan and Michael about like the kind of the responsibilities, and unfortunately, the you know, things are going to be put on them for whatever reason. And it and not only because of I didn't actually coach the either one of them in a team until they were both probably 15 or 16. I let other people do it. But you know, one of the things that I did talk to them about is, you know, when you're not only involved in your youth club, but you're also the head coach at Castleton, there is something about that that you know, there's going to be that idea of, oh, they're playing because of the coach's kid, you know, whatever it may be. And though that's a hard pressure to have on kids, you know. Um, you know, there's expectations like, you know, they that they know more, and and they're they're just like any other kid. They're developing themselves as they go along. And do they have some advantages because they're around an environment which that can teach them a little bit more? Absolutely. But but the fact is, you know, it's it's a it's a hard pressure on them, you know, for sure, you know. And um, I don't think either one of them felt the pressure, but I think they could have, they could have if if they didn't understand that both Sheila and I, you know, the only expectation we had for them is they enjoyed what they were doing and they were they were working hard at it to make to make it um to be the best that they could be, you know. Um otherwise than that, you know, um, no expectations for them to be the an all-state player or the lead scorer on their team or whatever it may be. Just just enjoy it and uh you know grow the love for the game and you know, and that goes a lot a long way, you know. But it's it's it's it's a tough one, you know, because because I've I've actually coached him, Bobby Clark had both of his sons played for him. One played at Dartmouth, one played at Stanford. And Jamie Clark is now the head coach at University of Washington. So, you know, so they have this builder. So he had his kids that played for for him. Mike Keller, who used to coach at USM, has his son that played for him. You know, um, so there's there's a lot of Devin O'Neill down at Western New England had his his both of his sons play for him. And sometimes there's quite a lot of pressure, you know, that can be put on those kids, not not on their own fault, but but it's just uh we've all talked about that at times about how how it just makes it um makes it harder on them if they if they don't have an understanding of it and is and if they have our support then then then that pressure kind of leaves them, I think, in some ways. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Yeah. What do you think, AJ? We've talked for like an hour and you're just listening.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Uh uh no, um, I I definitely wanted to ask uh what's what's the Chris and and John connection? How do you guys know each other?

SPEAKER_02 48:47

I don't know. Chris, when did we first meet? Probably ODP. Probably when I was first coaching ODP.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

When you were coaching it, I you might David might have been DOC at that time when you were coaching it. When we used to practice down at the polo grounds, remember?

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Yep. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think that was when it was. And yeah, no, it it it it seems it seems like it was it was just yesterday, but it's been a while, you know. And I think I think our connection has been good, you know. And the fact is it's for different reasons, right? You know, there's been ODP part of it, there's been obviously playing against each other, you know, recruiting, all that, but um, you know, that that's it's I think it's become kind of part of the the Vermont, you know, my Vermont culture of soccer culture, coaching culture culture, you know. So um it's it's it's been good. And then to find out all these little things, you know, with Green Mountain and all that kind of stuff. I think that that that to me is is amazing. I'll tell you a funny thing too, is when I was coaching at Chicago, I I I coached a an all-star game one time, and um it was after we went gone to the Final Four, and it was it was myself and uh the Green Mountain coach at that time were coaching the team together, and we had a couple of Green Mountain kids. And I and I remember saying to myself, I didn't even know where Green Mountain College was. And that was in '96 or '97, right? Um, but really good players, like really, really good players, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

So you're oh yeah, probably Richie Grant. That was probably like Richie Grant was and not and and Brian Dempsey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Chris Gilmore is a staple of Vermont soccer at the well, just kind of Vermont colleges at the at the college level, because he was at Green Mountain for a long time. He wasn't the first coach there, but he was the coach there, he coached there. I mean, he's got like almost 300 wins, or actually more than 300 wins, which is a banana's thought, right? Yeah. And then he was at Linden for a little bit, he coached at St. Rose for a little bit. That's who I played for.

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Um, I was actually hit my two years there. So I was only there for two years because I I had eligibility, but I graduated. His my last year there was his last year there also. So he ended like he was done at the end of the semester in 2005 when when my class of guys, which was the last class of guys that had like that had scholarships because we were at that time going from the NAIA into division three and moving in there. So we played this like basically full D2 schedule, except for the Vermont schools, Linton, Johnson, St. Joe's in May, uh, in Rutland, we played. And and there were some real good players on those teams. Like real, real good. And he was really good at he was really good at finding those guys. And there was a certain attitude, and and Chris's attitude is this way too. There's a certain attitude in those guys is like they just like did not care. Like they did not care who you were. And guys I played this with with were like this too. They did not care who you were. They were gonna come up and just kill you. Like that was all they wanted to do is score a hundred goals against you, and they were relentless. Like he tells these stories about like they're playing these teams in the NIA, NAIA in the old Mayflower conference. Yeah, yeah. They weren't that good, and it's like we're up by five or six, and I'm just trying to I'm putting subs in to trying to like get them to slow down, and they just like wouldn't stop. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Yeah, it's it's also really interesting. Like those guys, there are a lot of those guys that are coaching too. Not a ton, but like a lot. So uh Rick Stanton coaches the women at UMBC and and and Richie is in um or see San Diego.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

I think so. But he was at Memphis for I mean he basically built that program at Memphis.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah, I I met Richie during during coaching school. So I was at my B license, and Richie was at my B license, and that's how I that's how I got to know him. And then I then knew him from recruiting through, you know, I'd see him at events and stuff, but uh yeah. And I didn't even realize that he had been at at Green Mountain until I saw some of the I was over there and saw some of the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

So yeah, yeah. It's a really kind of small fraternity of like those of us of which I'm a part, is like, so when you're somewhere at an event and you see guys, like there's gonna be a pickup game and like we're gonna play and we're gonna just pull people in and play. You know, we're all broken down old men. It's like we're still gonna play this pickup game. And some of the guys, like Richie, it's been a while, it's probably been a decade since I've seen him because you know we're recruiting different places, but like he could still play, even as a guy in his, you know, he's like 15 years older than me or so, like 10 years. I mean, he could still play, like play, play. I mean, he was real, real good for sure. Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Yeah, I I remember him coaching school, he was a really good player. I I was really lucky. In my coaching school, Jill Ellis was in my coaching school that's awesome when I was there, and and Julie Shackford, who coaches at William and Mary now, and um, you know, I had a guy Bobby Vossmeyer, who played in with the Dutch national team, and he was coaching in the Pittsburgh area. So we had a really, really good you know, coaching school at that point, and Richie was in my B. So, you know, so you see everybody play, right? And you know what what they are as as players for sure, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

So yeah, and even the coaching school connections, because there were so many less coaches, like a lot of those are persistent relationships because you keep running into each other, or you they make you do those group projects, like as if you're on a coaching staff, and you work pretty closely with guys and and you you maintain a lot of connections, right? And if there's any takeaway from this entire thing, it's like like understand the network and like maintain it because you just never know who you're gonna run into. And there's a lot of really good people in coaching, I think.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, you're right. I mean, the networking part of it, I think it, you know, reason I'll be honest with you, the reason why I get an interview at the University of Chicago was because of Julie Shackford from my from my coaching school. She was coaching at Carnegie Mellon at that point, and um, you know, she made a connection with the Chicago coach at that point. You know, she knew her, and Amy Reifford is a good friend of mine now. And and they just they said, Hey, this is a guy who's at from at Dartmouth, and he's he's you know here at our coaching school, you should you should contact him. And and then so that's that's kind of how it fell in. Again, there's fate, right? Fate falls into a funny way, but but if it isn't for the networking and being part of those, you know, that coaching community, it it probably never happens.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

So and you know how that goes too. It's like if you're looking for a little something, you're like, hey, I might be looking for a little something. What do you hear? Right. Right? Or like, or hey, I need to hire an assistant. Like, who you got? Like, who who do you know that's looking that might be a good fit? Right. And that that's the other thing, too, is I I not just speaking for myself and all the other guys that are kind of in this network, is like when you call somebody up, or when somebody calls you and is like, hey, I'm looking for an assistant, what do you think? It's like you're trying to find a person that you know, it's not about who's the best coach, but who, like, who's gonna be the best fit for that person because you know a little bit about their habits and how they work, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

I agreed. I mean, I'll I use Aaron Murphy as a good example, you know, who has been my GA here the last couple of years, played at UVM as a goalkeeper, and now she's helping me with the wild. She played played for Fusion when we were fusion. You know, I asked her two years out whether she wanted to be my GA because I thought she was a perfect balance for me. You know, like like she I I told someone this one time is like Erin could get into the players a little bit and then allow me to do the other stuff that's you know, the the the kind of tactical things, like the emotionality that she has and kind of being closer to them, she can get into them a little bit at halftime, even with our guys. And our guys are really receptive of it, like they they understood it, and then I could sit down and talk to her. So finding the right balance is is definitely uh an important part of it, you know. And you see these long-term coaching relationships that people have, whether professional sports, international level, whatever it may be, it's usually people that are the are the those that that compliment the other other person. That's why they're coaching for so long, because they compliment them so well, you know. And and I've been fortunate, like Aaron, Aaron's Aaron's off to URI to be an assistant there, which is ironic too, that I have a Chicago and a URI person, but but you know, she's she's gonna be really good to compliment the coach there, what I understand. Because you know, Megan Jesse needs maybe a little bit of what Aaron has, you know. So um but it's a good compliment for sure. You know, finding the right person is just like in recruiting, it's the it's that's a big part.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Yeah, find the right person. And this is a thing we definitely need to talk about, right? Is like women coaching men. Like I think it's I I think uh uh this full disclosure, when I was a kid, I actually played for like several women, which is makes that's an incredibly rare thing. And I'm not talking about rec league, I'm talking about like, you know, what for us would have been club, like you know, travel soccer. I played for two or three women coaches, which is like that's an incredibly rare thing for people our age. But there now we're getting to a point where women like Aaron are actually coaching in men's teams in a way that like they're being given these opportunities and they're doing a really good job, and just proving like there really isn't there's not just like good women's coaches and good men's coaches, it's like there's just good coaches, and certain people are fit for like certain groups of people.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

Right, right. I mean Kelly Newson is a good example of that up in in you know who's at CVU now. You know, she coached Dartman's coach at UVM and she was coaching at South Burlington for a while, and she was coaching with the boys, and you know, she's she's another one of those people that like she's just a coach, you know, she just knows what she's doing and she's confident in the way she you know deals with people, and so it's an easy one for her to be able to do that. And you know, you know, there's there's you know, sometimes it's difficult, you know, relationships women to women too, you know. So um I I don't want to say coaching women is different, it is different, you know, in for me personally, because I think more of me is about age gap than anything. Um, but I do think there's you know a different way to be able to approach it and then what you're what your um how you get things out of them is a little different, you know, and feedback is a little different. You know, there's some players, certainly like Erin's a good example of someone that I could I could be a little more firm with. And uh, you know, she's but I think that's her Long Island in her, you know, so she she's good with that. But there's other players you can't, you know, and but I think it happens with men too. You just it's about personalities, right? And trying to figure out what what motivates them and you know, um, and what are the things that are most important to them and how you can approach them the best way um to get the the most out of them, you know. Um so I I I think you know, finding that finding that balance somewhere is is you know the the puzzle, and that's kind of the fun puzzle in some ways with coaching is is how do we do that?

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Yeah, and I really like what you said about like understanding them and and what motivates them because that is the job, right? I think we need to be spending as much or more time like actually getting to know our players as we do on thinking about the soccer, right? Because like the soccer is kind of easy, right? I mean it's it's not easy easy, but it's not real complicated. But understand it and each team that you have presents a different and unique puzzle. Like every year at Castleton's gonna be like that, every year, like it's different and unique. It's it's the ultimate relationship game. You take one person out of that whole relationship environment and the entire dynamic changes, right? And you don't necessarily even know how it's gonna change or which players are gonna be really impactful, but it does. So every year you're kind of you're trying to put together that puzzle in the best way you possibly can. And the only way you do it is by really spending time next to somebody understanding what makes them tick.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

So that when you're trying to teach them, what I find is when you're trying to teach them, if you can find their best way for them to learn, then you become a much better teacher. I had a guy play center back for us at at um at Paul Smith's, actually a young guy who's a freshman last year, and he was like way behind the game. It seemed like he was just like two steps off, like not seeing the game, you know, just kind of watching it, right? And he's not a guy who like watches, he's like an all-action kind of guy. And at a certain point, I'm just like, hey, what's going on? And he's like, Coach, I'm a really visual learner. I'm like, oh, okay, now I get it. So now when I'm explaining something, right? Like when I'm teaching a thing, like it's small-sided or whatever, or I'm teaching a shape, I'm like, hey, come over here first after. Come over here. Hey, did you really understand what I was talking about? Because I tend to be more of a verbal teacher than anything. And he's like, Yeah, some of it, coach. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna use these cones and I'm gonna show you exactly what I'm talking about. Like, let him think on him, oh yeah, I totally get it. And and for him, it really unlocked it. Number one, more than I became a better teacher. Why I became a better teacher was because I created a safe space for him to say, hey, coach, I didn't really get that. Can you show it to me in this other way that I'm gonna get it better? Right. Just because like it didn't make sense to me. And and now you know the relationship is such that like that makes his relationship with the team better because he's gonna go with whenever somebody says something, a team leadership guy, he's gonna look at him and say, Hey, can you do this for me? Because I created I because I made it okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:27

This is better for him.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

I agree, I agree. Yeah, no, it is. I mean, kids are sometimes kids are afraid, they're afraid not to agree, right? They're afraid, you know, you say, Does that make sense? And that you see the shake of hands, but when upstairs it doesn't make sense for whatever reason. And and there's nothing wrong with that. Is I I try to unlock that is like say it's okay to make mistakes, and it's okay to say I don't understand. Let's help you understand that, you know. And um, you know, I think that's part of the teaching, you know, part of it, you know. Um and you find it more and more with just differing personalities and you know, different experiences where they've come from. And um, you know, I I think that's the fun part of it, honestly. You know, sometimes it takes a couple years, sometimes it happens right away, you know, and yet you get it. So um, I think that's that's an interesting one.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

So I I think we gotta start uh thinking about wrapping up the episode. It's been about an hour. Oh, has it?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

Time flies when you're having a good time, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

It does.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

I told you if you get the two together, and we're gonna talk friggin' your ear off.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

So it's it's been so good. It's been like listening to a podcast, but I have to remember like I'm part of this, and I gotta get it. Just give it it's gonna be good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Hold on, we do have a couple minutes more. Like, what are some things that like we didn't talk about that like are burning, like burning questions for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

I I mean you've covered a lot. Like, I I wanted to hear what it was like to to coach uh Michael and you talked about that. You guys talked a lot, uh uh John's talked a lot about you know how positive you know Clover has been for uh what he sees Clover's doing in in the soccer community. Um you guys just had a great conversation uh about you know coaching coaching you know your athletes and stuff, and and John uh touched on some really good points. So honestly, for me, like you've hit a lot of the stuff that I wanted to talk about. So this this has been great. Great.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

I I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah, lost just sometimes it just flows, right? Yeah, yeah, it's going. So I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's really good stuff. I'll be honest with you. Some of my favorite times in sitting down talking with people is when it's just it's just kind of like this, you know. So you just you just gain so much more from uh from these conversations than anything really kind of official, you know, in some way.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

So yeah, and that this is what's gonna make a really good podcast episode, too, right? Like you you guys are just talking really good conversations, not scripted, we're not trying to guide you anywhere, we're just gonna see where it goes, and it's it's been a lot of fun. Um, John, before we we fully wrap up, you coach a lot. So what do you what do you do when you're not coaching?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Hey, you know, that's a funny one, you know. You know, I've been I've been lucky, you know. I mean, my wife was a coach for 20 years, a swim coach, you know, she's fully involved in what we do. Um you know, we we do a little traveling every once in a while. Like we're really lucky that both my kids studied abroad. So Mike Michael was in Belfast his junior year in the spring. Megan was in um England. So we we we traveled uh there. We went to Ireland for the first time together. So we've actually, you know, now that we're a little bit older and the kids are more independent, we we were able to do some things like this to travel a little bit more, you know. Um, we find our time to do things. I mean, we you know, I I think Show's been so intricate in in kind of my coaching journey and you know, being part of the team. We people talk about family all the time, but you know, we have the the players over to our house for for barbecues and dinners and watching the World Cup or whatever it may be, you know. So I think it's all in the family that way. Um, you know, so we yeah, we try to we try to do some some things. You know, she's from the Midwest originally, so we get out to the Midwest and see her family and spend some time in Chicago, usually every year, um, just to do some things there. You know, usually we kind of time it with a soccer game at like Soldier Field or something like that. But you know, we last year we went to a White Sox game, you know, and go back. We used to live up by Wrigley, so we'll go to see the Cubs play or do things like that. So we we just try to find some time to do stuff together, you know, yeah off there. I mean, I I you know, I I'm a bit of a workaholic, so like I take take the work home with me, but but I also balance that with some other things, you know, chopping down a uh branches off a tree the other day, so you know, so you know, I just try to find and meld that in together. I'll take you know an hour to do something at home and then I'll go off and do a few other things. But uh I've been trying to step away a little bit from like at least with Summit, you know, um coaching a team to give myself a little bit more time. And part of that time is to obviously be able to watch Michael play uh with the clover, but also you know, my daughter's in Virginia right now, working at uh at an education, marine education center. Um, so you know, we're gonna spend some time down there. So it's so it's it's it's just gotta cut some time out in and in between and and even support the coaches here at Castleton, go watch some you know, hockey game or basketball game or lacrosse. You know, I want to I want to try to do that as much as I can too. So and just enjoy it. So yeah, nice. It's a fun one.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

So very cool. Chris, any final words from you?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

Nah, I just when I was thinking about you outside chopping trees down and I'm and I was thinking about how uh that's a funny picture, but also I'm up there with a saw thinking.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

I will tell you a funny, a funny one that's off that so I'm a chainsaw. My wife doesn't want me using the chainsaw when she's not around, but so I'm out with these branches. I'm trying to, I'm trying to chop them up so I can put them in the fire at some point. The wood is so freaking hard, my chainsaw doesn't work. So now I'm working with a handsaw, you know. I'm like, I've lost, I've lost all the all the kind of this is just like a five-minute thing I can do with chopping these branches up, and then it becomes a sweat, sweat-filled, you know, hour, you know. So those little things like that. Working on the house is is is uh a part of part of what I'm doing too.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

So but it's deep focus, right? It's deep focus. Like, oh, it's gonna take five minutes, and then you end up taking an hour. And it I find deep focus really refreshing. Deep focus on like a whole lot of nothing, right? And like not just sitting there staring off in his space, but like Chris versus Tree, right? My wife tells this funny story about me outside. We've got these burning bushes, me trying to put like Christmas lights in them, one of those like net-shaped Christmas lights where I'm like, I had no awareness of this at all. It's kind of cold now, but not that cold. And I'm like trying to like get it on the thing, and like she and my daughters were like in the window laughing, just like watching me like wrestle this tree to try to like get this thing in there. But you know, but I feel great. I get done, I'm like, yeah, look at that. Like, looks good. How long was I out there? Oh, an hour and a half.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:58

Like, oh, all right, this is the only thing I did. The other day I missed I missed the first 15 minutes of one of the work. I was out there doing that. Like, I missed the first 15 minutes, you know, it's already one-nothing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:09

So uh yeah, yeah, I gotta set timers because I just Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and this is the thing about coaching too that people don't realize is like so much of what we do is like deep focus. Like when you're watching an activity or you're thinking about like the game before, it's like this deep focus. Yeah. And and and maybe it's lost in the modern world, not to not to expound on all that, but maybe it's lost in the modern world is like the ability for deep focus and how important that is as it as just for human development.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

Right, right. Agreed, agreed. Yeah, it's hard to do. So oh well, I'll work on my deep focus. I mean, you're out there sawing, it's good. Nobody cut your finger off.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

Yeah. All right. Awesome. Well, John, this has been a fun conversation. John, you are the head coach for Vermont Wilds. Please go to VermontWildfc.com to check out their schedule, buy some tickets, watch them play. John, thank you so much for your time today.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

Thanks for having me on. The strip really fun. I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Awesome. Well, for this episode of the Pink and Green Podcast, I'm AJ.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

And I've been Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:12

All right, we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:13

See you next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

That's gonna do it for today's episode of the Pink and Green Podcast. A huge thank you to our guests for joining us and sharing their story. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. It helps more people discover the growing soccer community here in Vermont. You can follow Vermont CloverFT and the Pink and Green Podcast on social media for updates, match coverage, and behind-the-scenes content throughout the season. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Until then, keep supporting local stoccer and keep the game growing.