SPEAKER_01 0:32

Welcome to the paper we can look at, where we explore the rise of Vermont Stock through the lens of community culture and the game itself, featuring stories from Vermont Clover FD. Join us as we talk with players, coaches, and the people shaping the future of the game in the world. Chris, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Sure is. I'm doing great. I'm really excited today about the springtime. We Luna and Nikki were outside doing some flower planting. They have green beans, they have sunflowers. I had some suggestions about where to put things, but they were not good suggestions. So they are in other places.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Nice. Don't you love it when you have a suggestion for your your child and they let you know right away?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Well, no, it wasn't even that. It was it was Nikki, like, you do realize if we're gonna plant the sunflowers there, we have to pull up the grass, right? And that's really just about me making a bad suggestion, not about them turning it down.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Gotcha, gotcha. Oh, I went when I make suggestions to my son, even though it's a good suggestion, he just doesn't know it yet. He lets me know that he doesn't improve.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah. So how are you today?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

I'm doing well. Um we had our driveway sealed, so all I'm smelling today is like, you know, tar. So that's been fun. But other than that, it's it's been a good day.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yeah. If you find yourself getting lightheaded, you should uh open a window. Right isn't that what they say on the paint?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah. I'd I'd I'd rather not open a window right now because it'll let more of that stuff in.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah, you need a fan or something. Pull your sweatshirt up.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

You're ready to introduce our guest.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

I am. I'm very excited to introduce our guest, and I'm very excited to talk to him. I only obvious obviously ever see him at games and practices and stuff like that, but uh I I'm excited to to talk to him a little bit. So uh our guest today is Michael O'Connor. He is uh well he's been the captain at just about every game. I think every game he's been the captain. Uh Vermont Clover. Welcome to the show, Michael.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Uh what are some rest of uh bio stuff. You want some more bio stuff? He played at Rutland High School, he plays played at Vermont State University at Castleton, where he also captained two years? Uh-huh. Just one, just one, okay. Just the one. Um all academic LEC. Yeah. Good. So he's a pretty good student. What else? What else is interesting? Oh, and I think this is also interesting to people is that the coach of Vermont State University at Castleton is also an O'Connor, Michael's father. And everybody always asks about that all the time. And just to be a little bit on the nose about this thing, how is it planned for your dad?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

That's a question I get a lot. I I honestly really enjoy it. Like we have a really good relationship. We would always talk about soccer more than anything else, you know, dinner table, car rides, that would be what we would talk about. So it was kind of nice that we could share that experience through college. Like we had our different teams leading up to that. He never coached me until I was probably a junior or senior in high school. Um, he started coaching me in club because he wanted me to kind of develop on my own. But it was nice to have like four years that we could share um with the same team. I I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah, that's awesome. As a as a child of a coach and father of players, I'm also I'm really interested in the whole coach player, like father-daughter, father-son relationship thing. That's just the thing I think about. How how old were you guys when you moved to Vermont?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Uh I was nine when we moved, so fourth grade.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah, so basically, I mean you I'm sure you remember being in Rhode Island, but not definitely, yeah. But like you've been here for like the most meaningful parts of your life, I assume.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Yeah, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Michael, I saw you recently graduated from college. Congratulations. That's fantastic. What what did you go to school for?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Uh so I went for health sciences, so kind of a pre like any health program. And so I'm going to physical therapy school this this summer. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

That's great. Um where where let's let's start with uh how'd you find out about Clover? How'd you get here?

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Um, well, we play Paul Smith in the fall, so I've seen Chris uh a couple years now, and um I found out from my dad, he was telling me that that Chris was trying to develop a team, you know, in Burlington to play in the UPSL, and um he was saying that there was gonna be some form sent out, and I was absolutely like a hundred percent gonna apply no matter what. So um, as soon as I got the email, I put myself in, and I was really, really hoping that it would uh pan out, and it has so far.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

So yeah, your your dad was one of the first people I talked to about it because I have a lot of stupid ideas, a lot of them, and I need sane people to be like, no, Chris, that's a dumb idea. And uh, so when I was like, I called your dad and I was like, Oh, see, I'm thinking about this thing, what do you think? And he's like, Well, Michael'd play, and a couple of these guys would definitely do it. And I was like, Well, if reasonable people who are good players want to do this thing, like maybe it's for real, and then you know, a couple of months later, here we are, right? How's the experience been overall? I mean, it's it's tough to travel for you guys because you're you know kind of far away, although that's gonna get closer. But how's the overall experience been for you?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Uh honestly, it's been really good. Like, um, it's obviously the travel is something that we just have to, you know, deal with, but it's it's it's so worth it for us. Like, Sean and I have been traveling um since February to play, but we we don't care about an hour and a half drive if we get to go and play, you know, and we're playing with guys at a high level, and it's something that we just really enjoy. It's it's kind of like just being back at Castleton or you know, playing back like we did in our our club seasons when we were in high school, especially because like, and I've said this to a lot of different people, I'm playing with guys that I have played against for 10 years now, you know, um competing against them in club or high school, and guys that I never thought I would get to play alongside. And it's funny developing relationships with them, becoming close friends with new guys like that.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Michael, what was the expectation going into this thing versus the reality of it today, right? Like so six months ago, you filled out the forms, you signed up. What did you think this was going to be and and what what's the gap between you know what you were thinking and reality?

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Honestly, I wasn't really sure what to expect. Like I knew it would be somewhere where like a lot of good players would be applying to play and and hopefully playing, but I I didn't know like it was going to be this professional of a level, you know. We get to training, everything kind of feels like set up for us and ready to go. Um, the the games feel so professional. We're walking out with kids like uh from the local clubs, and it feels like you know, that that level that I had always like dreamed to play at, you know, being able to you know be a Chelsea player and walk out kids during the Champions League, you know. Like it's obviously not the same, but it feels like a lot of that same sort of level, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

That that's awesome. I love to hear that. Um I am so amazed at the composition of players on this team and how well you guys have gotten together, gotten along together since like the get-go. Um, and I've commented on this a couple of times uh in a few other episodes where I've I've traveled with the team and I've seen our other teams, you know, the guys barely know each other. Like, what's your name again? What what position do you play? And that is absolutely not the case with Vermont Clover. Uh, you know, you guys show up, you're ready to go, everybody knows everybody, uh, and everyone knows their role on the field. What's different about Vermont Clover than you you think some of those other teams? Like, why why does that exist here, but not other other places?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I don't really know. I think about that a lot too, because um I'll hear other guys and some of the teams we play against being like calling each other a keeper or a striker, you know, and not knowing each other's names, which I think is is unreal. But um, for us, I think it's just the there's something about Vermont that's like very local. Like I feel that I know people in Burlington by name or by reputation, like distantly, even though I'm from Rutland. So then like getting here, I had a distant relationship with some of those guys just because I've played against them for years or like heard about them. And so I think it's just something where you know, like that that familiarity is important to like starting the relationship, and then being on the same team really gives us the opportunity to like go further with it.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

You know, Vermont, it's a small but sprawling state, you know, there's like 650,000 people here, but when when you start to get into these different niches, these different like subgroups, like I work in IT, I know just about everybody that works in IT in this state, right? So you you start to get into these like little subgroups, these little subcategories of people, and things feel a lot tighter than than they do otherwise, uh, in an already small state. So it's it's really interesting that you know we're we're kind of benefiting from from that uh in this this Vermont culture. I I want to say I I think a lot of it has to do honestly with with your leadership and the way that you work with the guys on and off the field. Like uh there is a practice session where the lights went out on the pitch, and without stopping, skipping a beat, blinking an eye, you just grabbed a bunch of the guys and you started playing a game and you're just juggling back and forth in the group. And I I feel like other places, other teams might have been like, well, practice is over, the lights are out, you know, like whatever, let's go home, let's wrap it up. But that's that's not the case here. And I and I think that you're a big part of that.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's definitely something that I I try to bring, you know, and whether or not like I was gonna be named a captain here, it was something that I wanted to do with the guys, you know, just like I I love playing, and I know most of the other guys also love to play. So just trying to, you know, make sure everybody has that good experience is something that's important to me, especially some of the younger guys. Like, I want them to go into college, like knowing, and I say this a lot to guys that are in college. Um, you know, they'll be trash talking on the field, and I'm like, you know, this game is meant to be enjoyed. You know, we're like supposed to be having fun right now. Like, is I I want to win conference championships, I want to do all these things, but I also like overall just want to have fun playing. Like the game is meant to be played to have fun, not to win something, you know? And obviously the winning is a byproduct and something that you know is a really good feeling. But I I think the best feeling just comes from being able to play.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

I I really appreciate that approach. In the leadership space that I work in, you'll hear top athletes all the time, uh, like at every level, the top top guys is like, why do you keep playing? It's fun. And they say fun. Why do you keep doing it? It's fun, it's fun, it's fun. And it's and you're right, it is about having a good time and about bringing people together. Do you so as a general approach to leadership, do you have you thought about okay, this is the kind of leader that I want to be, besides just creating a fun environment? Or is it just the kind of thing that naturally happened?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

I I think it's more of like a natural occurrence for me. Like I I think it was a development for me as I grew up, you know, especially being around my dad's teams, watching guys, watching the captains, or just like prominent figures on the team. Um I'm and I'm seeing like, oh, I really like what this guy does, or maybe I don't like how he reacted to that situation, or I do like how he handled this or that. And I think it's like the little like pieces that I've put together from just like seeing it and experiencing it, like captains on my team, and there's some things that I've taken away from other guys that I think are really important, and then some things that I've seen from guys, and I'm like, that is something that I wouldn't want to do, you know. So it's it's kind of just like building it for myself over time, and it wasn't something that was really like intentional, like this is how how I want to be as a captain. It was more just like this was a positive experience for me, and this was a negative experience. So it's it's carrying that on for those other guys.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah, I when we do our we have a unique way of doing the leadership stuff at Paul Smith's, and every team does have their own unique ways, but our thing, a lot of guys will come in and be like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, just be yourself. Whatever you think the best version of yourself is, like, that's why you're here. That's why your teammates will follow you is the best version of you. Just go ahead and do that. And a lot of times guys haven't thought about what that looks like. They haven't taken the time to introspect and say, Well, it is like who do I consciously want to be? So we get to have this fun journey together of kind of going through like who do I want to be as a person? And and for coaches, it's really important to understand what kind of a coach do I want to be. And that self-awareness piece is really important. And I and I've appreciated the self-awareness piece for you as a guy who's a little bit older, 21, 22 years old, and just kind of being able to model that to some of those younger guys that are still very much in the process of becoming, right? Guys who are 18, 19, 20 years old. I think there's a big difference. Yeah. Um, so I've really appreciated that. Um, from a playing perspective, what has been the biggest has have there been any differences playing at this level versus playing like for Castleton, for example?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I think it's different because the uh kind of the groups of people that we play against are a little different. Like the the guys that are recruited that we play against in at Castleton, you know, in the Little East, were um guys that I would have played against in club, like at the higher levels. Like I wouldn't guess it for NEFC when I was trying to get recruited because it's difficult in the like the Vermont Soccer League. So I was playing down there, and I think it's guys that are kind of modeled or built through these systems that they're like, this is the right way to play. And so there's kind of like a specific model for how they should play or how they feel is the right way to play. And I think in the UPSL it's a little different because you have guys that are a little older than college are not coming straight out of a club team, and they are, you know, they have a little more experience, so they're playing the way that they think is a little more right to play. So it hasn't been ingrained to them that this is how you have to play, you know, have you have to play out of the back to death, even if you're getting pressed, you know. Like I think it's more of like a life experience sort of thing, which is funny, like especially as you said, like as an older guy on the team, it's easy to say like that for me and me and Sean and Dima, you know, as old guys and talking about our life experiences. But I think it is it's positive to have like the the different experiences of you know, you know, playing in club, playing in high school, playing in college, and being done with that, and trying to put those together and and think like what is the best way for us to play as a collective.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah. Have you what are some of the differences in kind of uh style isn't the right word, but like the approach that let's say Brian takes to teaching the game or putting you guys out on the field, what are some of the differences and similarities to that versus like what your dad's doing?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

I I think um the the way Brian goes about it, he's he's he's very, very trusting of us, you know, that we know what we're doing. So he'll give us information and tell us, you know, like this is generally how I want us to play, but he kind of lets us like take the reins on it. So, you know, um having a different player playing up top, if we're playing with Ollie Nigro versus playing with Omar, they're two different guys that and two different players, you know, both good players, both goal scorers, but we kind of decide how we want to play. Versus I think at Castleton it was a little more like shaped for us. So my dad would kind of give us like a this is how I would like it to be, you know, this is the way we should be going forward. And obviously there is like some move like room to move in there, but um generally it's a little more like structured, but I think like the free flowing for us at Clover is kind of nice too. It kind of it depends on your like your team, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah, and it sounds like you're a guy that's comfortable kind of doing whatever, which is you know, and and do you think that there are guys that kind of struggle in uh not being told exactly what to do?

SPEAKER_00 17:38

I I think like definitely it's it's an adjustment. I wouldn't say it's like something that we're like currently like people are still struggling with, but I think generally it is like when you first get here, it's the the lack of like direct structure is is like a learning curve, you know. Like I I think that it's it's difficult to get at first, but then when you start to get to know the guys around you, um you you kind of figure out how you should be and where you should be, and those sorts of things within this team. Because it's a very individual team, you know, like very different from any other team I've played on, where we are all getting to know each other constantly. There's guys coming into training that haven't been here. So it is sort of like a once I get to know Rowan is a good example. Rowan Jensen, the right back. He's only come in the last four weeks because he's coming from school, but he's somebody that I've gotten to know really quick, and I now know how he likes to play. And he likes to get forward, and I can trust to play him out wide, and I know what he's gonna do when he gets the ball. But that first training was a little bit of a learning curve. I was like, okay, I don't know what he's like, so it's something that I just have to adjust to.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah, the fun challenge. I like to say that soccer is the ultimate game of relationships, right? And so the fun challenge is that you have to like really think about this other guy, right? And you got to do it in like while the game is moving, while you're making all sorts of other decisions, you have to kind of center this guy and like, okay, this guy wants it on the front foot. Well, for this guy, it might mean he just kind of wants it right at his big toe. This guy might want a yard ahead. This guy might actually kind of want it right in between his legs all the time. And you gotta think about that because how they receive it is gonna impact how they're able to play going forward. And ideally, they're thinking about that also. And part of the deal with being a guy in the middle is because you're directly interacting with all the guys all the time, you really got, you know, you got you literally have 10 other guys you got to be thinking about all the time. Whereas if you're playing right back, maybe you don't have a lot to do with the left wing. Every once in a while you might whack it over there, but you're not really you're not really having that kind of direct relationship with him on a touch by touch by touch by touch basis. So yeah, I I really appreciate your approach to that whole thing, too. That's pretty cool. AJ, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I I think you just said a lot of things that blew my mind, right? Like you I I'm not an athlete, uh so when you're saying like pass to somebody and you know, some guys want it at your big toes, some guys want it like right in between the legs, some guys want it like you know, a few yards out in front of them. Like, I didn't even think about any of that, right? Like, that's well, that's good to me. I can nerd out for you for a second.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

So there's really five places to play. There's five places to play the ball, right? If like it Michael and I are passing it to each other in a game, there's five places to play the ball, right? And each one of those tells the guy that you're giving it to what you want him to do. So the first place, two places, it's either ahead of the front foot or behind the back foot, right? In relation to attacking versus defending. You play it ahead of their front foot, it says, We want to go forward, now let's go do that. You play it behind the back foot, says, I want you to go backwards and we're gonna play into negative space. And right to the foot says, I would like if you did this, but you kind of have a choice. Right at the front foot is the same thing. I would like if you went forward, but you have a choice. You play it right in the middle as saying, I'm not making a choice for you, you decide what next. And now they're ultimately gonna make whatever choice. That guy could take that step forward, take a look, and be like, nah, forget it, we're still going around the back, and they can do that. But what you're doing is you're you're leading him into like, this is what I would like you to do because I think this is the best thing.

unknown 21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

So five places to play.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

I never knew that. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Well, most people don't think about it, right? Yeah, because they're not, you know, Michael knows this stuff. And most coaches aren't really telling people this either. It's just a thing that you play enough and you start to learn it. And you gotta play with good coaches who understand okay, every every pass is a choice, every touch is a choice. Like, so when we say play one touch, like what we're really trying to do is like get you comfortable playing in it so that you understand what your choice options are. When you say with two touches, it's okay, you now have these two touches, and each touch is like if you think of each touch as a one one thousand, it's not quite exactly that. So sometimes people are making an extra touch because they're it's not about the right thing, it's always about the right thing at the right time. So sometimes a person is making an extra touch specifically because they're waiting for a window to open that they know is going to open that is gonna require another one one thousand. It's happening all the time. Yeah, that's the deeper level.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Now that I know this, I'm gonna keep an eye on on the ball when when uh when it's out there. That's that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that. That's awesome. Um, Michael, I want to ask you uh two-part question. What has been the most exciting thing so far this season? And what has been the most challenging thing?

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Okay, I'd have to think about that. I feel like the the most exciting thing, honestly, for me is like getting to every practice in every game. Um, I've I've developed like such like strong relationships with the guys, like even though I've only known them for a couple months now. And I think it's like I'm I'm excited to get to training every day just because you know I get to play with the the guys that have become my like such close friends, you know. And I think that's a a really like lucky thing that I get to do. So I try to like keep that in perspective and think about it a lot. Cause if I forget that, then you know, like what am I really playing? For. And then I think the most challenging thing is like honestly on the flip side of that is like the the getting to new getting to know new players. Because I think um especially at Castleton, like I have my class of guys that I've been playing with for four years, and the guys above me that I played with for years, and the guys below me that I've gotten to know over years. And I think it's not that simple here because, like I said, new relationships, new people. And I think that's definitely a challenge. Like trying to put all that together for the first game when we were playing in April was definitely difficult. And I think we've had our stumbles, but obviously we've had like more moments of success, which I I really appreciate that the guys are putting in that effort to, you know, get to know each other, get to know how each other want to play, like we were talking about before. I think that was like our biggest challenge was really just that that really quick turnaround from hi, nice to meet you, to I have to trust you within this game.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, that's big, especially for somebody you you just met, too. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Who's been the most who's been the most surprising person? Like of a brand new person you met, like who's or maybe not brand new, but like who's the person that surprised you the most?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I I think like the first person I thought of when you started asking that was Dima, because he's this huge, you know, like really built um Moldovan center back, and you're like, this guy's scary. And then you get to know him, and he is like the warmest, nicest person. Like, obviously, when you're playing against him, not so much, but you know, like as a person that I've gotten to know, he's someone who goes up to everybody and shakes everyone's hand before practice and after practice. He's always asking uh if guys how guys are, he's always laughing through practice, you know, and and that wasn't like something I ever expected from him, like when I first met him. You just kind of like form this assumption about him because you know he's he's got his head shaved and he's got his accent and he's loves to make a tackle, but he's he's really been a surprising, a surprising.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Yeah, Eastern Europeans occupy a certain mind space in the game, right? Like there is a an Eastern European stereotype for a reason. Like those guys don't mind a tackle.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah. So I I I wanted to kind of tee you up. What what kind of opportunity has has Vermont Clover created for you? You know, like because if we take a step back, right? Like you you just graduated from college, so college ball is now over and not really an option for you going forward. So um, you know, in order to keep playing the game, what it would be like a men's league or or something else, right? So what what kind of opportunity did this create for you?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

This was definitely like an opportunity to keep playing at that like higher level that I've enjoyed playing at in college. Because I think like as much as I love I love playing Elite 11 during the summer, you know, the men's league, and I love the team I play with, but I think like obviously we don't get to train much or at all because guys have work and they can only make it one day out of the week, and that's the game day. And you know, it's I really enjoy the like we'll have some beers in the parking lot after or whatever, but I think like having a more serious level is is the thing that I really enjoy. Like, I that was the thing I really missed most was like I was gonna miss the intensity of like the training sessions at Castleton and you know, a huge game day and a tournament coming up, and I think it's just not the same when you leave. And this provided like an opportunity for me to you know just go a little longer with that and see how much longer I can keep competing at like what is my highest level, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Nice. What when did you know that that soccer for you was gonna be like this lifelong like passion thing for you?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

I don't know if I could put like a like an age or like when I knew for sure, but I think it was just like the amount of time I spent around the game, like with my dad, and my sister played uh she played in high school and played in clubs, so I was always going to her games, she was always coming to my games, and we were always obviously going to my dad's game. So it was just something that was like kind of ingrained in me that oh, you know, like I'm looking forward to this weekend because there's a soccer game of whoever it was, whether it was me, my sister, my dad. So it's kind of just like it became a normalized thing for me. So for me, it's something that I don't I don't see myself ever losing that, you know. So it was something where I was like, I'm not gonna just stop this once I turn 22 and graduate from college. Like it won't be done and dusted, I'm done playing soccer. It's it's gonna be something that I'll pursue consistently for the rest of my life. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

There's a certain thing that happens that you just like keep playing until you can't anymore. This is like, I mean, we talked to Al the other day and he was playing, he's still doing the men's league thing. And I mean, I played until basically I ruptured my Achilles and like kind of couldn't do it anymore. There, I mean, but I'll still catch an occasional pickup game, but just there's just something about the game itself that never leaves you, really. You know, and just being around it, just coaching, it like I mean that scratches a certain niche, right? And I love doing that. And my favorite part about that is you know, just kind of being with the guys and teaching and all that. But then there's a lot of times where like I just want to play and I can't hop in and play with those guys, like that's not a realistic thing anymore. But I like I want to just play, like just for the joy of playing, and I don't care who's around, I don't care if they're 10, I don't care if they're 70. I just want to do it. And and I don't know how to describe that to anybody else, but you know exactly what I'm talking about, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

And and and I think soccer players kind of know that thing, and and you can still catch pickup games. Like I still I still play with Trey's dad every once in a while on Sunday mornings, it's just wild. So there's a lot of soccer going on in Vermont right now that's kind of new. What do you like, what are your thoughts on all that stuff? So just to kind of go with everything that's going right now. So Green's been aware for a while, they've got a women's team going this year. We're going now. Vermont Wild, which your dad is also coaching, uh is going now. That's a women's team down in Manchester. We're about to launch our women's team, which is gonna also go play against them and then you know, kind of leading towards league things. What are your thoughts on soccer in Vermont right now?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I th it's it's so exciting for me because I think growing up, like I always wanted to have like a team close to me that I could support because there's this whole idea in soccer of like support your local team. And it's hard in the US because not everybody's close to a team. Like I think the closest team for us is the Montreal Impact or maybe the Revolution. So those would be the games that I would go to as much as I could when I was younger. And I think it's like such a unique opportunity for kids to be able to go catch games every weekend, you know, go see the green play, or come see us play, and then have it all over the state, like being in Burlington, but also being in Manchester. You know, you get southern and northern Vermont. It it gives like people an opportunity to go see things. And I also think it's unique because it's what I was talking about before, like the how close knit everything is in in Vermont. We I we were playing the other day, and I I know Patrick Inferno, one of the guy, big guys at the green pretty well, and I see him and a bunch of the green players at our game, and they're not watching out of like any spite, they are watching because they love the game and they're cheering for us and they want us to win. And that's the same thing. Like, I I go to the green games and I love watching the green, and I want them to succeed, and I think that's like that sort of like close-knit thing continuing through like all the levels, you know? And and I think that that opportunity is very unique for like a small state.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah, it is. A rising a rising tide raises all ships is really true in Vermont, I think. Have you been to that saying?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

I love that saying so much.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

It's good, right? Have you been able to get to the wild yet, or doesn't work with hadn't worked with your schedule yet?

SPEAKER_00 31:11

I haven't yet. I'm I missed their opener because we had training that night, so unfortunately couldn't go to that one. But um, they played twice this weekend, so I should be able to make it on Saturday and hopefully get to see that. But um obviously they've they've took a couple years off, but they were fusion before, and that was a a really cool thing to see. Like they had an incredible amount of people at their games, and they were so well known in the community, and the people of Manchester just really enjoyed having it. So it was it was tough to not have it for a few years, but that's like something that kind of shows you how important it can be to a small community.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah, those weekends that they do, the Green Mountain Challenge, were like awesome, right? So, AJ, the so Vermont Fusion, which is the club that hosts the Green Mountain Challenge in Manchester, um, they used to have a women's team in um WPSL. Three or four years they went and they had some really great players. They were really, really good. And Green Mountain Challenge, they would always host a home game during that tournament. And so you could go, and uh Applejack Stadium in Manchester is awesome. It's really, really cool. It's an awesome grass field, like it's real good grass, which is nothing's like real good grass. Like every player will tell you that nothing's like real good grass, but it's also like an old school wooden bleacher stadium. So if you watch like old timey baseball movies, it's like that, right? So it's got like a roof on it. It's a really, really awesome experience to go watch a game there. I can't even imagine what it would be like to play. And you guys are gonna have an opportunity to do that when we go down there and and play on the third, which is really cool. But just watching that thing, and you know, there'd be hundreds of kids in the stadium cheering these women on. It was awesome. Like we used to I think I saw four or five games total. I assume you probably saw at least that many, Michael.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Oh yeah, I saw I saw a lot.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Yeah, because it's pretty close to Rutland, right? And you know, your dad'd be in there, and the quality of the quality of football is out of this world that they were playing. And I assume it's pretty similar now, but they had some really, really great players. Um you know, honestly, like girls that have no business, they're way too good to be playing in tiny little Vermont, but here they are. You know, but here they are winning things and and doing really well. Um, which is kind of what we're trying to do too, is be that community team. I'm of all the things we have on our calendar coming up, the thing I'm most looking forward to is that game, believe it or not. On the third. I mean, it doesn't mean anything. It's just like, you know, an exhibition game against a team of guys from down there. For our women, it's the same thing. It's an exhibition game. It'll be their first game ever, which is gonna be really cool. But I'm really looking forward to just the whole experience and the environment. I mean, is there anything special that you're looking forward to kind of going through the rest of the season?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Honestly, like the the whole season so far has been pretty special, you know, like being the inaugural season and everything. It's exciting to you know succeed as much as we have so far and you know, have that home playoff game that we have coming up. So, I mean, that's what I'm really excited for is just like getting to play again at home because it's been, I think, two weeks now since we played at home, and like I'm already itching to be like playing back at home. It's there's just something different for like us there, having like all our family and friends and kids from the community and people come watch. It's just been like really, really exciting. And I think something different because you don't always get a lot of people at your games, you know, at your college or your high school. So I think like for a lot of guys, it's something new, and um it shows, you know, like guys really want to perform in front of the crowd and they they want to win for the people that are there cheering us on, and so it's like such an exciting feeling to know that like this weekend we're playing at home.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Yeah. Have you noticed differences in the crowds between home games and away games?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Definitely. Absolutely. Sometimes we'll be walking out and there'll be uh not too many people there, and we'll be like, man, I we really wish we could have played this game at home. Because there there at least would have been, you know, a couple hundred people there and some some kids that are excited to watch some soccer.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, home sweet home. It is a different, it is a different vibe. I've only been to a couple of the away games, just you know, schedules and things. That first game, if you remember, uh in in Maine, where there's like one guy's family and then like a couple other guys' brothers, and then like Archapelli rep. That was the entire you just you were there too, weren't you, AJ? The first game.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

No, no, I I I missed the first one.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

I nah there there were like five or six. It was a cold, cold day, and it was really windy. It was not like a nice day. It wasn't a day you would just randomly find a game to come watch, but I'm sure that like some of the guys were looking around like, what on earth are we doing? Yeah. But then we play the home game the next game, and there were a few a few people that came out. And believe it or not, the last game that we played has been our best attended game. We had you know over 500 people there, which is wild. Right. And the crowd kind of I mean, okay, we lost, but like it hits different when there's people like actively cheering and kind of getting after referees and cheering for you and getting after other people. It it's different. Um the difference between 100 people and 500 people is just huge, yeah, from a support level perspective. One of the enduring moments that I've seen in pictures is a picture of you and your dad kind of hugging over the cattle fence. I think that was after the first game. Um, talk about that moment. Like, do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah, I do. And I uh I remember getting the the folder of pictures from AJ, and um my my girlfriend had said she saw him take a picture of me and my dad hugging, so I was like, I was like, oh, maybe it's in there, maybe it's not. And I saw it and I was like, man, like getting to see it from a different perspective is nice because you know, like obviously, like I'll I'll go over and see him after every game that he's at and get to talk to him, and that's like a a really special thing for me. But um, it just kind of reminds me how lucky I am, you know, to to have not only my like college coach, but my dad be able to make it to those games and watch it. It's just something that like means a lot to me. So, you know, being able to see that picture and have it, you know, I I framed it for my dad and everything. So it's just something that like means a lot to me.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Oh, really? You frame that? That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

I I also am curious about the the dynamic. So your girlfriend is also a pretty good player, uh, also at Castleton, also playing the summer. So what's that? How do you guys how do you guys find ways to support each other even though you're playing, you know, hours apart?

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Well, she uh she bought the the season ticket, so she's been up to like all the games so far. And it was nice because she's playing with the wild, so they don't start their home games until until this last Friday. And so she was able to make it to a ton of the games, and I've been going down and watching the practices down at the wild and um just like trying to figure out my schedule so I can go like you know, give that back to her because like that that support is really amazing for me, and I'm I'm very lucky to have it. But um, it's also like support and like helping each other in the in the moments that aren't you know the games. Like she is her first time playing with the wild, so she was training a lot this spring to you know make sure she was ready. And so that was for me, you know, we would have a late practice, and the next morning I'd be at the field with her just so you know we could get some time in and she could have somebody to train with. And I think like we we have a really good time training together. I think that could be difficult for a lot of people, you know, when you're having a bad day at goal and you keep hitting them into the baseball field at Castleton and you're just not having a good one. But um, for us, it's like we we keep each other, you know, looking forward and uh don't let ourselves get down on ourselves. So it's it's it's really nice to have. And um, it's a it's a funny dynamic that like I have my dad and I have my girlfriend both really involved in soccer and really involved in my life, but um it it is something that I really enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Yeah, during the spring games, I was other so for AJ to set the context and listener. We so my the college team I coach and the college team Michael played for, we play each other, and we went to the spring game kind of festival thing that the Castleton guys hosted. So my guys were playing in between games. I was sitting up in the booth with Sean and Michael, and Tina came in, and that was a real good time. Like like just kind of watching a game with you guys was actually a lot of fun. And I had never really talked to Tina before. I had met her, you know, at a game and said hello, but never really spent any time with her. And I really, really enjoyed just you know, the dynamic you guys all have and just kind of being able to sit in there and kind of be a fly on the wall a little bit. It was fun, it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

I I'm still so tickled that you gave that picture to your dad uh frame. Because uh that that that was that was a fun game. Fun, fun time. Um Michael, uh I'm a big proponent of mental health. You have a lot on your plate, sir. Uh so how do you how do you take care of yourself? How do you how do you stay fresh so you can you know be an athlete and then still show up for class and and everything else that you do?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

That that's a I don't know. I think with playing, like it's it's kind of my break from school. Like I I am like I love what I do and I'm really interested in the field and everything, but sometimes you get to that point where you just like you need a little break from you know your anatomy class. And I I I can't like look at a graphic anymore and try to memorize the you know muscle origins and insertions and everything. Like I you just get sick of it. Yeah. So I I think like I have a pretty good balance between my academics and soccer. So like when I have a bad game, you know, going back to school is something different to focus on, takes my mind off of like off of soccer. And then when I'm struggling in school, like um to stay like on it, you know, just going out to the field for an hour or like going to training, I think it's like a good, a good break. So it's kind of like a a like rocking between those things. So like when one gets to the breaking point, you know, the other takes over, and then you just try to keep it like 50-50, but that's the that's the best I can do. And I I think it's just like I said, I I enjoy playing so much and seeing all my friends at the field that like that that gives me like a relief, you know, from the things that are stressing me out. And that that does happen with school, and we'll we'll see how it goes with PT school because obviously that'll be a a little bit of a grind. But I think that like having you know the the clover to play with during during the summer and then playing you know indoor and pickup and intramural will be will be good for me too. So helps to balance it out.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Yeah, that's awesome. Uh as oh, go ahead, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

I was gonna say clover's not going anywhere. Um worst game ever, and then best game ever.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Worst game ever. Um I think probably the worst game I can remember recently. We played UMass Boston at home my sophomore year, and we were just in a tough run of games. Like we played some of the best teams in our conference, like back to back to back. It was rainy, it was slippery, and I just felt like I played terribly. And they they ended up beating us, and it was just like for me, like not a good game, and I I just came off like wrecked, and there was really like nothing you can do about it, but it was just like it was a hard one for me to take. And that's that's like the one I remember most. Like, it's some of those that are the outliers. Like, you feel like there are some not so great and some like pretty good, and that was one of the outliers of just like I felt horrible. But um, I don't know, best game. I mean, some of the games we've played this uh this spring have been, you know, like really exciting and fun to be a part of. I think that first home game against the Mystics was was a great game, and it was it was cool to get to score in that game and have my dad be there and my girlfriend be there. Like that was really cool. But um I don't know, I could think of so many, so many different games. I think uh honestly, one of the ones I enjoyed a lot at Castleton was my freshman year, same thing, UMass Boston. But we were playing at their play, and we we scored a really good goal, uh, Matt Spiller, who wish he could have been a part of the clover, but he tore his ACL this fall. But um he he scored a brilliant goal, and we spent the rest of the game defending our butts off like as hard as we could, and it was such a like a rewarding feeling to win the game, and then we got a home playoff game out of it. So, like I that's one of the best ones I have in my recent memory.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Yeah, you messed Boston both sides of the coin. Hey, there's still next year for Spiller too. He's got to get on that rehab, get free again.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Oh, he he's working hard, don't worry.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Yeah, I and he's coaching too, right? Uh yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

He coaches with bar posts.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Yeah, it's good. I think I think I saw him the other day at the field, but he was like going one way, and I was you know, you know how that goes. Um what do you got, AJ?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Uh as we come to a close on our episode, uh Michael, I wanted to ask you, um you know, answer this uh however you you you like. What's what's uh athlete to athlete, what's like the best piece of advice you've ever gotten? Um the maybe the the best thing you learned throughout you know, you've played soccer for a really long time. Uh and so you know, just if you had to give some advice to to a peer, what what's the best bit of advice you could offer?

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Um that's a tough one. I think um one of the best ones I heard was when I was, I think I was going into seventh grade, I went out to do my dad was coaching at the the Notre Dame overnight camp. So I went out and got to do that. And it was really, really fun, but I was a nervous wreck because it was like a ton of kids, and um, you know, everybody's talking about getting recruited, and I'm only in seventh grade, and I'm like, is this something I have to start thinking about right now? And so I was like really, really nervous. And um, between the two sessions of the camp, there was one the first week and one the second week, I got to go and kick around with some of the Notre Dame players just because um, you know, we we know the guys pretty well and they were working the camp. And I was telling one of the guys who actually plays for Austin FC now. Um, I was telling him that like I didn't know what to do, and I was like so nervous every time I played. And he's like, he's like, yeah, like I used to get that way, but the the thing that I can say is like I don't play because I want to, you know, get drafted in the MLS. I play because I like to play. And it seems like such a stupid thing. And I've said it a couple of times during this, it's like playing because you love to play is more important than playing because you want to win, you know. So obviously you do want to win always, but I I think like that was like a reminder for me that like I only have so many years left that I can, you know, be playing the way I want to play, and you know, at the highest levels. So I think it was a reminder that I like just need to enjoy it. You know, I was maybe 12, 13 then, and it's been 10 years, and I feel like I'm like kind of reaching that point where maybe I won't be able to play at the clover level or the the Castleton level for much longer, like just opportunity-wise or body-wise sometimes. But I think it's just that that enjoyment factor is so important, and it was a good reminder that you know I I just need to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

I think that's a great piece of advice. Uh, Michael, this has been a really fun conversation. I want to take a minute to remind our listeners to smash that subscribe button, whether it's on our YouTube channel or in your favorite podcatcher, if you want to keep these episodes coming. Any parting words?

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Nothing I can think of. Uh Chris, anything from you?

SPEAKER_02 46:53

No, I really appreciate you coming on, especially on super short notice. I this is I think the first of a couple of conversations we'll have with you because I really appreciate your insights as just you know, being a guy who's been in the game for kind of his whole life.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Well, thank you guys for having me on. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Yeah, man. Thanks for coming. Catch up with you soon.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Absolutely. Awesome. Well, for the Pink and Green Podcast, I'm AJ.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

And I've been Chris. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

We'll see you next time. That's gonna do it for today's episode of the Pink and Green Podcast. A huge thank you to our guests for joining us and sharing their story. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. It helps more people discover the growing soccer community here in Vermont. You can follow Vermont Clover FC and the Pink Green Podcast on social media for updates, match coverage, and behind-the-scenes content throughout the season. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Until then, keep supporting local soccer and keep the game growing.