SPEAKER_01 0:32

Welcome to the Pink and Green Podcast, where we explore the rise of Vermont soccer through the lens of community, culture, and the game itself, featuring stories from Vermont Clover FC. Join us as we talk with players, coaches, and the people shaping the future of the game in Vermont. Welcome to the Pink and Green Podcast. I am still AJ Murray, and you are still Chris George.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I definitely am.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Chris, what is new today?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Uh lots of things, actually. Um I'll tell you what's on my mind is I read last night, and I've known this for a while, but I hadn't read it in a while, that the continental drift, so the way that the continental tectonic plates go, they grow, they move at roughly the same rate as human fingernails grow. And I was thinking about that as I was driving when I realized my nails needed to be cut. And that's think about how often you gotta cut your nails, and that's how fast the continents are moving together or apart. And that's probably why earthquakes happen. No kidding. I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

What's on your mind?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, that's you gotta say, that's exactly what I was thinking about. Yeah. When the earth's toenails get too long.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

What's on your mind, AJ? Uh now it's the the movement of the tectonic plates.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

I I love like facts like that though, you know, like stuff I wouldn't know otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Oh, that's good. Now that I know that, I am full of them.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

All right. We're gonna be starting the show with fun facts from now on, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

God, I hope not. Uh actually, no, I hope so. It's gonna be great. Should we introduce our guest?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yes, we should. Our uh guest today is one of the most accomplished and influential soccer coaches in Vermont, based on the resume that I just read on this website. Uh, he is also the director of soccer operations and uh one of the co-founders of Vermont Clover. Uh, please welcome to the show, Shane Vufano. Shane, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 2:59

That was a very kind introduction you had to make.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Well, we we try to do like a little bit of a resume and and tee things up for the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

You can't just say he's the most accomplished one of the most accomplished coaches without giving us any details about that.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Uh I know. I there's so much here, it's kind of hard to pick where to go, but you are the founding director and uh or founder and director of coaching for Queen City FC. Uh you launched that in 2011 and it's grown from just three teams to now then uh more than 30 teams across Vermont and parts of New York, serving over 500. 40 teams. Yeah, something like 41, I think, is what we have this year. And uh this bio says over 500 youth players. What are we up to now?

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Probably closer to six.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Wow. And and you've coached at the high school level, the college level, the high school, or uh you have some major awards at the high school level. Uh dang man. I I didn't know all this about you, and I'm like, I'm just trying to take it all in. Where where do we start? I I'd like to start with um how how how did you and Chris connect uh and and become part of Vermont Clover?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Well, I think our background together with Queen City, um, you know, if you really want to know how it started, it started in a Starbucks cafe on Williston Road one day. Um Chris was just kind of transitioning uh club scene and asked me about Queen City. So I think like I don't know, everything kind of comes back to QC, I think. Um and honestly, like uh the the purpose of why Queen City started is just kind of just being a little divergent from what the other clubs were doing, and and honestly, I think kind of Clover was is a little bit divergent to that. And both Chris and I think in a similar way where you know we just try to do things a little different than than other uh people in the community, but stuff that we feel like makes sense for the community. So um when he got the idea of Clover, pitched it to me and wasn't quite sure if it was something that was gonna happen. So I was like, Yeah, I'll give you some money and we'll be I'll be in if it happens. And then one morning I got a message like, What's this clover about? And I'm like, Did you launch it? There was like something on the UPSL website like I guess this is happening. So then I was all in after that.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah, Shane and I have actually known each other for a really long time, and um Shane is one of the people when I have an insane idea. Shane is usually one of the first people that I call about that, and 99% of the time he's like, That's an insane idea. You should stop thinking about that. And this time he's like, That's an insane idea, but sure, I'll I'll I'm game, and here we are. Um, I think we first met, you probably remember this. Uh so Shane and I are both alums of Green Mountain College. We both played there, and I think the first time we met was at that spring alumni game, right? When you hurt your knee.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Uh I actually rolled my ankle.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Oh, is that what it was? Rolled my ankle. I was standing.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

You might have hit me. You might have started that tucked me out. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah. And then a couple of years later, so actually a few years later, I'd been coaching at Farpost and kind of done with the being there. And Shane had started Queen City a year, I think 2013 was the first spring that I was at Queen City. So, right kind of towards the beginning, and I really liked what Shane was doing from like providing access perspective. Cause the guiding principle with Queen City has been forever, it's got to be affordable for families. And I really liked the idea of kind of working in that context and coached at Queen City for I think seven years. Well, like initially when I was there, like coaching teams all the time, seven years.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

It's kind of been on and off since then.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah, and then since then, you know, kind of on and off. So and you know, I'll step in and help out a team on a weekend or you know, run a session here or there. And my girls both play Queen City too, so there's like pretty deep Queen City connections there. Um, and and I really it's been unbelievable to see the growth of Queen City from when we started. Well, you started it, and then there's again a few teams. I think the year that I was there, there was five maybe. And then because there's two girls' teams and three games.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah, it was uh it went from like one to three to five to nine to fourteen to twenty-one, and then we're like we're way over our head, and then we dropped back down to like fourteen, and then like we've been steadily around like the twenty to twenty-five team. I'm just talking about the Vermont portion of it, um, somewhere between 20 and 25. Right now, we're at this year in Vermont, we're in like the 29 range, but like our sweet spot is somewhere in that 22 to 25 team range.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, I remember having talks way back when about scaling, and it's like, how many teams does it make like you how many teams is the right amount of teams to add at the same time, right? Because it's like, oh, you go from three to five, and then you go from five to seven, and it's like, but you really need eight because you can do that on two fields, and it's just like the economies of scale are radically different now. It's Queen City is so much bigger than it was back then, and I think it's really cool that uh how much good it does and how much how how good you've been for the soccer community overall with some of the other stuff that you've done. I I really appreciated watching that kind of outside looking in, both as your friend and co-conspirator at times. It's been good. Um what so why did you say yes to Clover? That's a real question. I still don't understand it all the time. Like, why'd you say yes?

SPEAKER_02 8:53

I don't know. No, I I I do know why I said yes to Clover from like a a uh like philosophical standpoint. Though I the reason why I was hesitant there is just because I'm doing so much. So obviously AJ Wisted all that stuff, and he left out a few things. So I'm president of the Vermont Premier League and co-founder with it, and then which is probably now it's the top level of youth soccer for Vermont, and then I'm also the president of the VSCA, which is the high school coaches association. So um, with that stuff, uh you know, and then obviously Queen City, and then being the head coach at CVU, I've had a lot of taken on, so that's why I said I don't know I took it on, but from a philosophical standpoint, I believe a lot in it. Um, because pretty much a lot of the stuff I do, um, you know, especially the start of Queen City is like underdog story type stuff. So like um, you know, even being one of the largest clubs in Vermont, I still consider Queen City as an underdog uh in a sense where you know we we try to do the right things, but um, you know, we might not be everybody's first thought about you know the top premier club in Vermont, um, but I think we compete well with all those. And you know, then I kind of came in to coach at Johnson, which you know, similar situation. And then um so with doing all of the uh Vermont isn't really thought of until the last couple of years as like this big soccer state when I think about you know where I came up from playing Nordic and ODP uh growing up, where we were in Region One for regionals and and and the ODP tournament. And out of the 13 state associations, Vermont's probably was like one of the bottom three with Maine and West Virginia, I think, for the longest time. Um and so not like I said, not really thought of from like the pure Vermont's players to be a top state in the re not even in nationally, but in the region. And so um, but as time has grown, you know, in the last 10 years or so, we've started to kind of enhance that profile. Obviously, the last few years with the green and the um UVM kind of boosting Vermont nationally, um, there's been some recognition for it. But um, there hasn't when I was playing in college and then when I was coaching in college, there wasn't really a place for uh players to go if they wanted to enhance their playing ability during the summer, like right after they got off of school. Um, and I know when I was recruiting at Johnson, there was always some kids that I was getting from like the Oregon, Washington area, and they were always like, is there some sort of semi-pro you can play here? And I was trying to kind of maybe ship them off to like New Hampshire or something and um see if we could get them there, uh, if they were gonna stay on the East Coast. But so when the the idea of Clover coming about, I was like, Oh, this would be something like when I was a player that I probably would have done, and or um, you know, if I was still coaching at Johnson's something, I would be like, oh, I would have really loved my guys to do this to enhance what they were able to do when they came to me um after the summer for our preseason. Um, and then the fact that like one of the things from what I've always wanted to have happen uh when I was on the board of the Vermont Soccer Association at one point, and I've just been pushing for it as a club administrator with Queen City is the ODP program and how I've always felt like it was never the true best teams in or sorry, the true best players in Vermont. So when you think of a state team, even when I played, my club team at Nordic was better than my ODP team and I played both. And it typically has been that way. And so having something that was like a true best team in the state, I've always felt needed to be something that was free or very, very low cost uh to enter, um, so that it's not a barrier. And so when the idea of Clover being a free thing, which is basically like, you know, you either can handle it or you can, and if you can't, like here's the door. I think that's a harsher way of saying it, but like I I've always uh I really resonated with that because it would be something that was really showing a true state team um and the the best kids from Vermont. So like what I feel like we've put together is like a essentially an an ODP team for the 18 through 22 year olds of Vermont, and and it's been awesome to see it blossom the way it has. It's my long-winded answer.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

No, that that was great. Uh Shana, I'm kind of learning a lot about you in real time. Um a couple questions. You you you contribute so much to the soccer community here in Vermont. How do you do it all? I'm getting a little older.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

I actually just turned 40 a couple weeks ago. Like uh I if anyone who's kind of played in our club, uh just find pockets of time to do it. So like you might find my emails are coming in for certain things at like 2 a.m. kind of grinding through and like figuring out when I can do it. I honestly I've dialed back a little bit this year, uh, even though I'm coaching quite a few teams for our club, but I've uh used a lot of my former players to kind of help be coaches and I instead of running the sessions this past year and a half, I've kind of let them run it and then just kind of give them pointers so that I can train other people to do it so I could take a step back and let others kind of take the lead on certain things. Um, but what I I don't really think of myself as all those four or five things that we just listed is more so like they kind of work in different time frames. And so um the beginning of the fall and then the transition and the spring are really the the main times where it's like it feels like a lot of those things are happening at once, but they kind of coincide with each other, so it's like Premier League stuff is in the spring, Queen City's kind of all year, CVU's in the summer, um, so it's like always having like maybe two things at a time, and then obviously Clover is now kind of beef full year thing, but um you know I'm definitely helping to enhance the Clover profile, but I'm kind of an ideas guy in the back and function, like how how are things gonna function and consulting in that sense. Yeah, I don't need to coach Clover.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah, I uh so with Queen City, you're very much like the person who does the stuff, right? And with Clover, your role is the idea guy. How do you find the differences between having to go execute on the ideas versus I can just throw anything at it?

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Uh sometimes I because I am so hands-on with the Queen City stuff, I feel a little guilty sometimes because it's like, oh, I think we should do this, or this is something you go do it, and I'm like, I feel bad at making that person do it instead of me doing it. But uh no, I think it's it's almost like a sandbox in a sense where it's like, yeah, this might work, and I don't have to go execute on it. However, having said that, I have my opinions on things, so you know, if I don't like it, I'll have my opinion be heard.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Um Yeah, I think that that's healthy in any kind of in any kind of leadership group, right? Like it's healthy to to have everybody's opinions be held and have all these ideas and some things you can do and some things you can't do. I mean, I think that's a natural and normal thing. What um so we're most of a we're we're half, let's say half of the first season in. What's something that's happened that's kind of surprised you uh in this whole process?

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Uh something that has surprised me in the whole process has uh been uh just how you know quick we could kind of come in and uh enhance the and this is not a knock on the UPSL D1, but more so like uh honestly raise the level of and have something for some of the other teams to aspire to. And like I said, that's not an insult to the other teams, but it's more so just things I've heard from the few games being on the field um from some of the other teams. So like obviously, not we're like one of the few teams that sells tickets to games. Um that you know, all of them are doing social media, but not necessarily quite like us. Um, and you know, obviously we have professional looking uniforms and stuff like that. Um, and so like coming out of a couple of games, I've heard the opposing teams say nice things like, oh, that was like a big crowd, like the biggest crowd I've ever played in front of, and andor like, you know, that was really an enjoyable game. That was a fun game to play. Um, like so I think having teams like ours in there and like the emeralds and and um you know, just coming in and kind of setting a standard um definitely helps to build awareness of what we're doing, build some like community and also like excitement for well not just what we're doing, but uh helps give others something to aspire to to really give some ownership and uh you know make the league want to you know improve itself too.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah, that was one of the things that we talked about right from the beginning was making sure that we're really setting the standard and we're to be something to aspire to. And I think that that's one of the things we've been able to accomplish in the short time we've been going. So that's pretty satisfying.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Yeah, and not only that, and like I said, like I said, like not as an insult, we're not doing everything right either. Like we're probably even like even 50% of the stuff that we're doing, like want to do it better, so like we can still improve upon the product that we're putting out, especially because you know, behind like a lot of the guys who are involved with it, so myself, yourself, bucksek, um, and then obviously trays in school. Like, there's only so much that we can give, so we're doing all of these things and what we can do while also running other organizations on top of it. So it's not what we're dedicating our full mind and body to. Um, but we're still able to pull off what we can pull off and produce a good product. So, you know, think about extrapolating that to if that was the only thing we were doing, I feel like we could even enhance it more.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, a long time ago, this guy we used to hang out with used to say that every Vermonter I know has their own hustle. And then I look at those of us that are involved in this thing and it's like we all have hustle. Like we're all hustling, and we got we're hustling here and we're hustling there, and we're hustling there over too. It's there's something about maybe it's a quintessentially Vermont thing, is like how much kind of effort and energy we have for things.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yeah. Especially things that uh we see value in and believe in, um, which I've always felt like just nationally and club soccer in general, uh, you can tell uh which clubs or which coaches are kind of in it for like this is just supplemental income versus like I'm really bought into this and like feel like I'm part of something. And so, you know, for like I said, everything comes back to Queen City, like all of our coaches, they might not have you know the highest coaching license or maybe coaching in college or or whatnot for their resume, but they all care an incredible amount, and I think that that weighs more than whatever licenses you have, especially if you've got some background and it's about kind of knowing the kids' names and making them feel special, and also you know, putting a level of uh care and ownership into it, which I think all of our coaches do, um, and a sense of belief in like this is what we're doing, this is what our mission is, and um finding a place for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Uh I I want to go back to the kind of start of Queen City FC. Um, what what was kind of your original vision for for starting that?

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Um going all the way back, there were three main things of why we started it, or why I started, I should say, um, and then got other people involved. So uh it was A one-man show when it started, and I was like kind of this young and dumb 23-year-old, 24-year-old. I don't even know how old I was, but not very old. And uh it I had just gotten a job um coaching at Edmonds was my first job. Um as like they didn't even have they hired me to be the A team coach and uh they didn't have a B team coach, so I ended up doing A and B, but I kind of pushed the B off to a parent, um, but was kind of training both teams at the same time. Um, and when I had come into uh when I like I said, when I when I played, there were really only two clubs in Vermont. So it was uh Nordic and Farpost, and like if you want to weigh success on State Cup, so State Cup was a completely different animal back then. Um so there wasn't really the development academies, there wasn't a proliferation of US club soccer. If you kind of know the different avenues between U.S. youth soccer and US club soccer. So the the thing to be in was U.S. youth soccer and State Cup and regionals and nationals was like a real pathway with like the best teams in it, and so was ODP. Um, like the ODP team I played on the regional pool had six guys that were on the national team. Like Freddie Adu was playing it, Charlie Davies was playing it, um, and my groups. So um it was those two clubs were the elite of the elite, and Nordic was kind of the magnet at the time because out of the State Cups, they probably had like 95% of the State Cup champions. Um, there weren't any B teams for either of those clubs, and the if you didn't play for one of those two clubs, you play like on a town club. Uh um, and so that was the club scene in Vermont, and then down south there was something called Mountain Soccer Club, which was essentially like kind of maybe what fusion is now, but it was the Southern Vermont Club, so not much around, and then right as I graduated high school and I was done the club scene heading into college is when count uh capital kind of came into uh the scene. So very small club scene, and then when I graduated college, I had noticed that some of the clubs were kind of starting B team, so the level was lower, and it seemed like things had bypassed um town, uh at least in the Chittenden County area. So I'd started Queen City to be an alternative because those clubs were kind of expensive, and like at that time it'd say $1,800 to $2,000 base range. It's similar now. Um price has gone a little bit up. So I wanted to start something that was a lower cost alternative, which was number one. Um, number two, uh in between my first year at Edmonds, I had moved to coach at South Burlington High School. So um they had at that time they hadn't won a state championship for boys soccer in 20 years. Um, they've gotten close, they had a lot of good teams that either lost in the semifinals or the finals. But one of the things I had noticed was that they had um, you know, from club players, even though that was a big uh one of the bigger town uh metro schools, they only had, I don't know, like a handful of club players, and then the rest were either guys that didn't play club at all and were just multi-sport athletes, um, or they were like town team players. So I wanted to create something to where not to upset the top guys on the uh on the high school team, but to build from players eight through 20 on the roster. So within like two years, we ended up basically making some teams that had like all those eight through 16 guys on the varsity roster were playing Queen City as a supplement um with guys from Winooski and guys from Burlington. And then in that five years from when I started, we got to the state championship three times and won twice. Um, and then I left for to coach women at um St. Mike's. But um, so that was like the second part of it, and then so affordability um kind of coupled into the helping South Burlington was the the flexibility piece of it. So, like I said, a lot of those guys were multi-sport athletes. So I wanted to have a place where you could play club soccer, but it didn't have to be your entire life. So if I want to play basketball, I want to play hockey, I want to play baseball, I was able to do that. So we created a flexible schedule for the multi-sport athlete. Um, so that was like the second part of it, and then the third part was just to kind of be inclusive. So um, you know, that all kind of worked itself. And we honestly, 15, 16 years later, we still have all of those elements of it. So we are looked at as a club with more flexibility where we have kids that play multiple sports. I think that's why even successful. Our schedule is flexible, um, our training model is flexible because we put a lot of teams together that have similar playing abilities. So that, you know, if a kid, like for instance, if we got 15 kids on a roster and five or six of them are playing another sport and they're not out of practice, we couple them with another team that's got a similar uh level, and then we can still have 20 guys at a practice that's effective at the same level. Um, so there's no like elitism towards like, well, you're on this team, so you have to practice with these guys. So it's just a cultural difference between some of the other clubs. Um and uh the affordability piece, I would say like the cost of Queen City has gone up, but we've still kind of stayed with being lower cost. So we're around we started at about $400, which comparatively was like a fourth of the price of people, other other clubs, and we're at about 800 now for that full year, which is still a little more than half off. Um so if you got multiple kids, it's it's a little more affordable. Um, it's I'd like it to be lower, but it based basically over the years, the demands of some of our parents have increased. And then I was making a lot of deals when I started. So, like, hey, we're new, we're trying to be affordable, and so I would get some free field space, get some reduced field space, and a lot of those costs of like we're one of the bigger clubs, like, no, you gotta pay the full thing now. And I used to I would do a lot of things to, as Chris would say, we're grinders or we're uh, you know, um hustling all the time. So I was hustling, doing things like um I bought a heat press to make all of our jerseys and stuff, um, and uh basically was saving like six to seven dollars a shirt. And then when you multiply that by however many kids that we have, we were saving a ton of money so I could save our families money. But now with that many kids and then multiple pieces of the uniform, I I put that out to soccer.com now, which um you know increases the cost a little bit too. But um, but like I said, we're still competitive in that cost. You know, I do have a lot of people that come up to me and say, like, oh, you should raise your price, but it just seems counterproductive to what my vision was and why I wanted to start it. But but that was kind of the preface, and like I said, it worked. Um like I said, South Burlington, not taking credit for anything at South Burlington, but the it I think building that bench up for them uh uh really helped in those three state championship appearances and the two titles there. Obviously, all all the credit should moon who was coaching them then. Um, but uh I really see it with who they have now growing up being the coach at CVU. Like I'm looking at I'm doing all this coaching with these SB kids and I get jealous because I'm like, oh, in a couple years, all of you kids are gonna be playing against me when we play. Uh, because we're just loaded with South Burlington kids at our U 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 team.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

So when did you coach at South uh South Burlington?

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Uh 2011 to 2015. 11, 12, 30. Yeah, 2011 till 2015.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Okay, so so we we overlapped. I worked for a South Burlington School District uh in their IT department from 2010 to 2012. Yeah. So we were we were there around the same time.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yeah, it was right when I was getting started.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, that's cool. Um, what what was what was the hardest part of the early years? I mean, that's that's quite an accomplishment. You you took it from a three three-team club. Now I mean still going strong and and stronger. You're at like 40 teams. You said like what what was really hard in those early years getting going? And and did you think it would grow to what it is today?

SPEAKER_02 31:18

I never thought it would grow to what it is today. Um, you know, pleasantly surprised but happy about it. Um, but it is a lot of a lot of work. So it's I'd say what was sorry, what was the question? Like, what was the hardest? What were you getting started? Um being a personable person, uh guy like I'm is like keeping everybody pleased is kind of one thing. So there's two or three different avenues I'm fighting with that is keeping my family happy, one keeping the people in the club happy, and then also staying and building relationships within the club community, which if I start with that last one was difficult at first. So, like as I've been in it, you know, when something new comes along, now people don't like it because it hurts other people's bottom line. So, you know, we came in and people were a little weary of us like what is this starting, this you know, group starting, and how's that gonna affect us? And like, and so you know, one of the things I did is just try to get involved in like all these things like I was talking about. So, like as you see, what I'm doing now with being the president of the league and then president of the um the coaches association, and you know, I got involved with the VSA on their board and you know, just tried to learn like the inner workings of things so that you know I could be somebody that was an ally versus you know being an enemy, I guess. So um I think that that's worked well for us. Uh and you know um I think we have a pretty good relationship with most of the other clubs in the community because of that. Um but you know having good relationships with the parents and the kids is you know, the more teams you have, the more the more uh parents and kids you have to communicate with. So, you know, when you have 400 kids, you know, I I love having happy parents and happy kids, but you know, there's always different directions certain kids want to go in and and and um you know when you're growing and you may not have all the coaches you need or all the space you need or the competition level you need, uh trying to figure out ways to help push everybody along where they need to go is is probably the most difficult thing. And then, like I said, balancing that with time with my kids as they grow has been also you know part of that equation.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yeah, what a lot of people don't know about those early days of Queen City. Now I wasn't there the first couple of years, but I came in pretty early. I mean, we were bootstrapping everything. There was a place we used to practice in Colchester where we would have to go out and like line the field with cones because it was a nice flat space, but there was no proper soccer field built there, right? So we were doing that kind of stuff to try to because you know, it was like it was a space, we didn't have to pay for it, which meant we could keep the cost down. So we were really hustling back in those days, kinda all the time. And the and there was a certain um there was a certain spirit in the club at that time. Uh there's a couple of guys that are coaches now, um, that are brothers that used to just the makeup of the team that they played on, they would drive their mom's minivan and they would load all their all that like half the team would show up in McTarr's minivan, right? Or Mukhtar's mom's minivan and they'd get out. And it was a really kind of like espree decor sort of sort of spirit back then that you can have when you have four or five teams. But you get and I think one thing that I've always been impressed with is that even with all the changes and how much it's grown, there still is that kind of esprit de corps. There's a lot of coaches that have been around still, like Aubrey's been around for a long, long time, right? There's a couple of coaches that have been there for that kind of whole thing that are able to carry that spirit along. And there's certain really cool club traditions that are kind of low-key awesome, like the when you do your cheer, it's like you know, you put your left hand in because it's closer to your heart. And it's like just for granted, and to see you know, Luna come home, who's my nine-year-old, and be like, Oh, we did this thing, and I had my right hand in, and you know, and then somebody was like, No, you put your left hand in because it's closer to your heart. Like, I remember a team that was doing that, you know, 13 years ago, who kind of thought that up in the first place, which is really cool to see you those kind of things carry through.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Yeah, um, you mentioned Mukhtar and Mahat and the Minivan, and so one thing I'm really proud of is you know, uh the award seasons come and go at the end of like the high school season. We have kids that get awards for like all metro and all that kind of stuff. But one thing I'm really proud of this year, and I guess the same thing was kind of true last year because uh Adolf was one of who was the South Burlington head coach, was one of our original coaches. But obviously, the Metro is the biggest high school league in Vermont, um, and there's seven schools in that, um, which included CVU, SB, BHS, Essex, St. Johnsbury, Mount Mansfield, and uh Missin One. Um it's the last one. Oh, Colchester. Um, and four of the seven Metro head coaches have some Queen City tie. So obviously Mukhtar and Mahat are coaching Essex in Burlington, and then the guy that is replacing Adolf at Southbury and Art Right is one of our coaches who's now been coaching with us for four years and it has all three kids in our club, and then obviously I'm at CVU. So that's something I'm really proud of that more than half of the metro head coaches in Vermont are have some tie to our club.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Well, even if you expand that a little bit too, like just thinking about Rich and Aubrey, like there have been, if you think about all the girls' D2 state championships over the last decade, like one of those two has been on the sideline for almost every single one of them, right? Yeah. Because Rich coached with his Rich was Rich Couture, he coached with his sister Seantal at Milton for quite some time. And Aubrey, who uh is a longtime Queen City coach, is the coach at Rice girls team. And those two programs, I can't think of another program that's won actually over the last probably 10 years or so. It's just kind of one, it's either that pro it's one of those two programs winning at D2 level for girls every year, which is really cool that that's kind of the Queen City connection there is really cool too.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

I want to lob a question at both of you because you both have extensive experience at coaching youth. Uh, and and I have a son that plays soccer. So I I would love to know in your opinion, what should parents know to help their children succeed in in soccer?

SPEAKER_02 38:05

I would say it's something I'm dealing with a lot right now, is that there's if you trust the club that you're involved with, we as leaders make decisions and there's always a plan, a greater plan, a plan that might we we try to kind of help all the kids in the club, um, and you know, both individually and as a club, but sometimes there are things that you know you might not see the big picture of things that uh contribute to the immediate success of either your child or your child's team. Um, but the overall greater landscape of you know soccer in that you like like I said, your child, their team, or the overall club or league in general, that there's something that is in there for them to see some sort of growth. So it might feel uncomfortable to you know be in a situation where you're like, oh, I feel like you know this isn't happening for my kid. But if you like I said, if you trust that club, they are thinking of a bigger picture that you might not immediately see just because we've been around it for multiple years, versus like if you're a younger, if you got a younger kid, they they kind of only know what they know. Um so that would be my big advice.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah, I think a couple things I think about this a lot because my two daughters are at kind of different ages and stages. So my older daughter is she's a U14 this year, she'll be a freshman in the fall. She's got in her mind that she wants to try to play at a level beyond high school, which is fine. That's a good goal to have. So there's a couple of things with that. And then my younger one, she just likes to play, right? She's she's a U10, she just she'll be a U10 next year with the age change, also. Uh, she just kind of likes to play. So she's not thinking about anything beyond I just want to go have a good time. Um I think for families, it's really important to have an idea of like really talk to your kid about like what are they in it for, right? Because a kid that says, Oh, I want to I'm a good enough player that I have a realistic chance to go play, let's say, at a D1 school, right? Which is very few kids, versus a kid that says, Hey, I just want to be out here and have fun with my friends and get as good at soccer as I can and be a contributor on my high school team, how you navigate through the landscape is going to be completely different for those people. Because different players have different needs and different families have different needs. And I remind myself all the time as a coach, one of the things I struggle with is watching what happened, watching what's going on in the field and being like, oh, they got that sub wrong, or oh, I would set it up this way, right? Not just my own kids' team, but every team I watch, right? Which is whatever. Um what I have to keep into perspective, does my daughter or or my son, I don't have a son, but my son, do they feel valued as a member of this team? Do they do they feel that the coaches care about them? Like the river effect, do they feel relevant, important, valued, empowered, and respected? If if you can get all five of those and your kid is having a good experience on that team, there's really no reason to change it unless there's a reason to change it, right? Which is to say don't chase the five percent. If your kid really is like the best player and has realistic uh chances to go at a much further thing, then you need to think about how do I get to a place where I'm gonna get a different kind of exposure. But trust the process and trust the coaches and have those open and honest conversations with them and trust that your coach is gonna tell you the truth. So when someone comes to me and says, Hey, my kid's really good, do you think they could go play a D1? You need to be open to the answer of like, I don't think that that's a realistic thing for your child. And to trust that the people who know these kind of things are like trying to help you make the best decisions for your kid as well, and to kind of keep you focused on the right things, right? I think it's really easy to just kind of get caught up in the rhythm or the flow of we got to play at the absolute highest level to try to, you know, chase this moving target when the most important thing is is your kid having a good time? Do they like their teammates? Do they feel like the coach cares about them? Like those are the most important things. It's not about should I play a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 or maybe this sub instead of that sub? Did my kid get five minutes instead of 15 in this half, or did they play all the game instead of a little bit less of the game? Does a coach care about them? Do they feel that the coach cares about them? Are they building great relationships with their teammates? Like at the end of the day, that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

There's two things that you just said that are major examples that I've seen in my time doing all the levels that I've done. Um and one is the choice of you know, tournaments and exposure and all that kind of stuff that clubs are choosing to do, and how it impacts the the greater team or the player within the team, and um you know, specifically pinpointing on your you know, challenging them to the fullest of their ability all the time. And this is where I think Queen City in general has a little bit of a different philosophy from some other clubs. Like, I actually don't feel like we need to challenge them to the highest ability at all times for them to find enjoyment. Uh, and I'll give you an example of that. Like, you know, we have some teams that are doing multiple tournaments, like some above their level, some below their level, some right at their level. Um, uh, you know, with a majority of them that are very challenging. Um, but you know, when you have a team and when we're trying to like reach all levels of the team and you know, potentially like have some kids play some different positions or learn some different positions or not kind of just get stuck in the monotony when you're playing 30 games a year, uh when it's all said and done between March and June. If we're always playing at this highest level, the bottom of that roster is never kind of getting to grow because if you want to win the game, if that's what you're pushing for, like they're gonna Play the best players, and sometimes some kids get left out versus if you got a mix of games in there. You know, some of those kids might get more of an opportunity. Or, you know, if or if you're always being challenged and you're losing all your games, maybe you're not having fun. And not saying that winning is everything, but it is fun to win at like at times. So, you know, there's something I think to be said for having a mix in there and not taking it so seriously that it's like we oh like always looking for the next thing. Like I always need to be being challenged because if we're always looking forward, we're never living in the moment. And that's one of the things from a cultural standpoint that we try to do is like let's just live in the moment and not think about what club am I playing for next year? Am I playing for this team next year? Am I gonna get brought up to this team? Where are we gonna go like just live in the moment and be happy? Um with you know, we had a really successful weekend and I enjoyed it. And let's live in that moment for a little bit and and uh celebrate that success versus all right, we're 10 minutes after we won, now we're thinking about the next like and so just to kind of get the kids to slow down, so just piggybacking off of that. Um, but also and then also like the other thing I've seen too is like just uh when it just becomes so much of a job for some of these kids, the the the burnout is real, and so having a balance of that where I've seen so many kids where it's like I'm on the premiere team, uh you 10, 11, 12, 13, and then all of a sudden, like kids have grown to be my size, or I was a bigger player, ball gets played to me all the time, I can outrun people. Now I can't, and now I'm not on a premiere team, and instead of and and it's like coming from some families, like, oh, my kid really loves soccer. But then when they don't make that premier team, they quit. So it tells me, like, did you like soccer? Did you identify with being a premier athlete? And now you've quit because you're not a premier, like labeling yourself as a premier athlete anymore. Like, I'm very against having our kids identify themselves as like this is the team I'm on, and this is the only thing I can ever play for. Um, which is why I find value in you know, not honestly not playing with us sometimes year-round and doing the school thing, doing a town thing, because you're learning from different coaches, playing with different kids, playing with different it's it's I think there's value in that, and that really tells me how much you love the game versus like I can only identify with this one group and I can only play this one position, I can only play with this one coach. Um, there's just value in that, in my opinion. But just piggybacking off what you said.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Yeah, school sports are awesome. And to reflect on my daughter Posey's experience, like I think she'll be the first one to tell you that like middle school soccer from a soccer perspective wasn't awesome. Like she wouldn't tell you, oh, I learned a ton about soccer, but it's an opportunity to play with all of her friends that she didn't get to play, that she doesn't play club with, right? And she really likes that kind of social aspect of the sport. And yeah, you want to win every game, but not being so bound up in, oh, I gotta win, right? And the flip side, the cool thing about high school sports is that like you do gotta win. And there's no there's no like, oh, we have to play this certain way. It's like, okay, we just gotta get out there and win because you know the whole town wants you to get out there and win and they show up for you. And I think I I I I don't want to say I feel bad because that's not right, but there is a trend, and that and this has been going on for a while, to take the best kids out from the high school experience and to do like the club experience year-round. Is the overall soccer better? In a lot of cases, probably is. You're playing with like better players, maybe, maybe even have better coaches, whatever, even though better when it comes to coaches are all are all relative, maybe more knowledgeable soccer people, right? But they get to miss out on that essential representing my community and town and friends and being with friends in a mixed ability team. Like they're missing out on that. And I really do think that both they and the entire school community really starts to miss out when some of the best players are opting out of high school to chase after a D2 school instead of a D3 school or to try to play professionally. And it's all things that the the results are just vanishing happen for vanishingly small numbers of players. It's like enjoy the experience.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Right. And and I I'd say uh I've always equit when I've been asked about like, well, what do you think of uh you know, Seacoast or whatever, and I get not putting those clubs down versus playing high school. My response isn't an anti-seacoast or an anti-club thing, it's just like I kind of equate um you know, Queen City Farpos, Nordic, BFC, Peak, whatever in Vermont, uh as you're playing for PSG or Chelsea or Arsenal, and then like when you go play for your high school, you're playing for Ecuador or Honduras, Argentina, USA. Like it's you're playing for your country, and you know, the Champions League is great, the Premier League is great, but there's nothing like the World Cup. And so it's like you're playing when you're high school, you're not gonna get playing in front of I mean, I'm speaking from like a metro standpoint, a thousand people versus you know, playing in front of like ten people on a sideline in a club event in the fall.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah, and club is yeah, and club is kind of just like nobody cares really. Like no one pays attention to that. There's not like no one keeps the record on clubs because there's a million age groups or whatever, but there's a record, like there is a top scorer in the history of Vermont high school girls soccer, division one, two, three, and four. Like it mat it matter, it just hits in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Yeah, yeah, and and like I said, both both things have value, not knocking either or, but um I just look at it as it's I'm like I'm playing for my national team in my world of Vermont.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah, I've always felt like that too. And that's kind of like the the driving idea behind Clover is like can we build a Vermont air quotes national team here? Can this just be like the best Vermont kids all playing together? Are we gonna get all the best ones? No, that's probably not ever gonna be realistic, but can we get almost all the best ones? And and and relevant to the original question you asked all those minutes ago, have a real conversation with your kid about like what's really important to them about the experience of being a kid and what's gonna make them at the end of the day the happiest thing, rather than just getting caught in the momentum of one thing or the other. Like make make decisions consciously and intentionally with Tim or with whomever.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Awesome. Well, well said. Um Shane, you you do an awful lot. I'm a uh big proponent of mental health. How do you you know keep yourself from from burning out? And and to piggyback off of that, what would you you know, you mentioned it earlier, would the athlete burn out? You know, how how do you tell them to also kind of avoid that?

SPEAKER_02 52:08

How do how do I do it and then how do I tell others? Yeah, I'll start with how I do it. Um you know, a lot of people ask me, like, oh, should you see the Premier League game? Or and I'm like, nope. So like I don't know, I'm just like between all the stuff I do, I probably watch or coach 200 games a year. So I actually believe it or not, don't watch some of that stuff because I need a break from it.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Um, and so like I like watching college basketball, so that's my thing. All right, you know, we'll binge a show on Netflix. So that kind of keeps me um mentally in a different space. Um, for our kids, like I'd say, how do I help them with that is just like you know, just a shoulder to talk to about all that stuff, and I try to keep perspective with them about it. And you know, if it's uh a really big proponent is like if our experience is not the experience you're looking for, then I would never not release a kid out of Queen City or um, you know, don't I wouldn't just keep them where they are, but if they ever wanted to come back and experience um that with us again, I'm always open to it. Um, but um during the tryout season, I spend a lot of time on the phone with prospective players. So I I pretty much look at who's trying out, and then I call anybody who comes from somewhere else, and I kind of give them a little the parents of little interview and say, like, what are you looking for? Here's what we are, and really give them the opportunity to say, like, okay, this is for me or this is not. And I'm just honest about what we are. So if it's not for them, then it's not for them. And so our retention is pretty high because of that, because I am honest about what we are, and I'm not gonna sell you on something just to get you in the door. Um, and I think that that has just been so so for for overall, like the mental health of our kids are I feel is better and limits burnout because we do, like I said, we're creative about how we set up our training so that if kid wants to play hockey or they want to play basketball, they're not feeling the pressure of like if I don't go to this practice, I'm not gonna play or I'm gonna get benched or whatever. They have the opportunity to do that, and we still have a quality practice because we've coupled our teams together so that we can still have a practice with 15 to 20 people that is meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah, for any listener who's got a kid playing, the thing to take away from that is that like Shane, when he's you know, we're talking about recruiting here, both at college and for club and whatever, Shane's taking the time to have a conversation with you about here's what this is and here's what to expect, and asking that question, is this for you? Which you you can answer. And it should be like a real and open dialogue. If you're being sold a thing, you probably shouldn't be at that place, right? What you should be doing is having those open us and honest conversations with a prospective club. And same with when you're talking about college, when you're when you're talking to that college coach, like what are they are they really giving you the straight dope on the on the program and what they're running? And are they asking you the question, do you feel like this is a good fit for you? Rather than just trying to sell you as a roster spot or we need to have this team or whatever they promise you the world. Have those real and open, honest conversations. But the other thing I would say that's relevant is again in my own experience, as parents, give your kids the option to like sometimes we drive an hour for for a practice, so it's pretty far away. But there are times when you know my daughter is just like, Dad, I don't have it this week. Like mentally, I'm fried and I just need to not be there today. And that's okay, right? And and be okay with that. If it starts to happen regularly, now you really need to have a conversation about okay, where are you at? If it happens every once in a while, okay, I'm exhausted because I've had a ton of homework or whatever, and kind of be, and I think it's important to kind of be okay with that and also set up a situation where that is okay, and then every once in a while an opt-out is good, versus you just got to be at everything and grind through no matter what. Because the grinding through is what causes burnout.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, uh, this has been a fun conversation. I want to remind our listeners to subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcatcher so you don't miss an episode. Also, check out our YouTube channel to see video versions of the show. Also, get over to VermontClover.com. Make sure you buy ticks and get yourself a nice t-shirt. All that supports the club. Uh, and also uh check us out on Instagram. We'll leave links in the show notes for all this stuff. Shane, on the way out, I want to give you an opportunity to promote the stuff that you're working on.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Promote the stuff I'm working on. Uh I just go to go to Queen City, I guess. Go to Clover Games, go to CVU. Uh, you know, like uh it's one of the things I do not the best of is promoting things because I just feel like word of mouth speaks for itself. But uh I'm proud of all the things that I do and what the people that I work with and what we do together. But um yeah, just go out and play and have fun. It's really I'm not gonna promote any of this stuff. I'm just gonna say go out and play and have fun with your friends and family.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Awesome. I love it. Excellent. Well, this has been another episode of the Pink and Green Podcast. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

We sure will. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

That's gonna do it for today's episode of the Pink and Green Podcast. A huge thank you to our guests for joining us and sharing their story. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. It helps more people discover the growing soccer community here in Vermont. You can follow Vermont Clover FC and the Pink and Green Podcast on social media for updates, match coverage, and behind-the-scenes content throughout the season. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Until then, keep supporting local soccer and keep the game growing.